Women & Money: The Shit We Don't Talk About!
Women & Money: The Shit We Don't Talk About!
Heal Your Relationship with Money with Kara Stevens
What’s your first memory of money? Was it something exciting, scary, or stressful? If you’ve ever felt guilt, shame, or even anxiety when it comes to finances, you are NOT alone. And guess what? The way you think about money today has everything to do with your past.
In this episode, we sit down with Kara Stevens- a powerhouse in the world of financial wellness, blending her expertise in economics, education, and social justice to empower women of color to heal their relationship with money and build lasting wealth.
We talk about how emotions, upbringing, and generational patterns shape our relationship with money. Kara shares authentically on her own journey; from growing up in a household where money was a constant stressor to completely transforming her mindset and building wealth on her own terms.
She opens up about the emotional weight of money, why so many women feel guilt when they start earning more, and how to finally take control of finances without fear or shame. This conversation is real, honest, and packed with those “OMG, that’s me!” moments.
If you’ve ever felt stuck, overwhelmed, or just straight-up done with the stress around money, this episode is for you.
Got a unique financial story to share? Whether it’s about crushing debt, building wealth, an unexpected windfall, or just a wild money moment, we want to hear it! Or are you a professional who helps women with money? If you’re a financial coach, attorney, CPA, or work in any area that empowers women financially, we’d love to hear from you too! Your story could inspire our community of women. Fill out our intake form here!
Join us at The Next Wave of Women Shaping Business and Wealth!
March 14th at 12 pm Central.
Your ticket fee is more than just admission—it’s a donation! 100% of the proceeds will support &Rise, a nonprofit dedicated to empowering women survivors of trauma and abuse to become the best versions of themselves.
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Maggie: [00:00:00] Kara, we are so excited to have you on today on the Women and Money, Shit We Don't Talk About podcast. And so before we dive into our conversation, could you introduce yourself to the audience for those who haven't met you before?
Kara: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Kara Stevens. I'm founder of Frugal of feminista, and I really like to talk about money at the intersection of gender and wealth, but also at the intersection of emotions. Because I think oftentimes when we talk about money, it's very tactical and strategic, but if you're a human being, everything is based on emotions, then we backwards design it to justify what we do.
And I think it's important for us to start talking about emotions and money as a key part of any type of wealth building strategy.
Barb: Emotions and money. You nailed it. Emotions and money. Wow. I'd love to dig into that a little bit as we learn a little bit more about you, Kara, and really what got you to start the Frugal Feminista.
Kara: I started the Frugal Feminista because I graduated from Oberlin many years [00:01:00] ago. And a lot of debt and I had no intentions of paying it back and I would get the credit card statements and I would also get my student loan balances and be actually irritated that they kept on sending it to me because I was actually, my strategy was to avoid paying it.
And I thought that if I ghosted them, they will get the hint, but there was one moment when I was at my mom's house and I opened up, I think it was my Discover card bill and I was like, mom, this bill. The balance went up and she's are you serious? It went up because you didn't pay it. It's late fees and it's occuring interest.
And I was like, Oh, so they really want this money back. And she's Oh my God, you just graduated from a really good school and you have zero understanding about financial literacy. So that was really the impetus for me to start getting my finances together. Cause I realized that this debt was not going to go away.
And it was around September 11th where there were lots of issues around getting a job. So I was just struggling. So I [00:02:00] was like, well, I have time cause I have no job. So let me just figure out this money thing. And I went to the library, found a book, and I started my journey there.
Barb: Wow. The nerve of those people wanting their money back. Wow. Dare them.
Kara: Yeah.
Barb: It's interesting Go ahead.
Kara: No, I just think it's something that a lot of us, I honestly, I was like 20 something, so we don't even know. And that's the whole thing. I'm 18, we signed this promissory note, you're just happy to go to a school that you really wanted to go to. And there's a, maybe a couple of minutes of a conversation and then there you are four years later with all this debt and no real perspective on what debt means and what that means for your future, your career, your stress levels, even like your marrying options and your partner options.
I was doing the best that I could with the information that I had.
Maggie: It's so interesting how easily they do hand over some of this money at that point. It's let's set them up for, being trapped in this little hole sometimes. And yeah they're happy to give the money out, but it's so funny when you go to buy a house or something, they're actually like, wait, let me look into that a little further and see what money you have.
Cause you know, at 18 I was like, well, I make, [00:03:00] 18 an hour. Is that, you want to give me some money,
Kara: Exactly.
Maggie: You focus on healing women and their relationship with money is I can see that you've healed, your relationship with money of not even wanting to talk to the, the debt people to getting that taken care of.
And so what are some indicators that may be room for improvement around our money mindset and how do we address that?
Kara: So I would even say that how I was managing and responding to my debt was actually more indicative of a deeper issue with money from my childhood. So I grew up in a household where not by my mom's choice, she became the financial caregiver and emotional caregiver for my brother and me. And one fell swoop when my father left us.
And so her way of dealing with that devastation and loss was to be extremely closed fist, to be really risk averse. And that manifests in how she dealt with money. And so I share that story just to show you the connecting of the dots and saying that I avoided [00:04:00] paying my debt as an adult and also being almost resentful that they're asking for this money because how dare they?
I don't have enough. Why are they asking for it? I think the connection is some of the telltale signs about that is how do you respond? to an issue around finances that may feel uncomfortable, that may feel out of sorts that may make you feel out of control. So that's the first thing I would also even look around me and see the people around me and see what their explicit messages were around money and see if you pick those up, especially your immediate the people that influenced you the most.
In my case, it was definitely my mother. And I would also even say by default, my father, because he created some of these situations that put these things in motion, right? And so I would say look at your primary influences at the person level, but then look at also the influences at an institutional level.
So if you grew up in a faith based home, what does your religion teach you about wealth, [00:05:00] poverty, deprivation? Is deprivation noble? All those kinds of things. So you get to really have a holistic of you on what you think on where those that those ideas around money. I will also say another contributing factor is gender.
Well, what are the gendered messages around money? Is it not ladylike to talk about money? Is money a man's job? Are women just frivolous spenders? Do they have to hide their purchases and become almost like a girl when it comes to explaining their purchases or justifying their purchases? And so I think when you have a holistic perspective on where these messages coming from, you get to see a larger picture of why do you respond to the things you do when it comes to money in the particular way that you do it?
And you'd be surprised that similar backgrounds or people with similar backgrounds may have a lot of similarities in how they respond. But also, the same factors may have them respond in the exact opposite, the polar opposite way.
Barb: Yeah. It's so interesting when we really [00:06:00] unpack money mindset and all the covert influences that impact that and weave into our fabric of who we become and how we naturally respond. And when we stop, and it's, it sounds like this is what you did when you started learning about money. And reflect on why your behavior was that way.
And I think that's where, tell me if this is where the healing part comes in around healing your relationship with money. What were some of the aha moments as you started to learn about money?
Kara: Well, I started to see that money was more of a symptom of a larger issue that I was having in general with life. So similar to the concepts of like, how do I feel about risk vulnerability? How do I feel about even the case of seeing my mother struggle so much with trusting other people how I use money became a proxy for my beliefs around love, [00:07:00] vulnerability and a lot of other things.
So money was sometimes weaponized in my way to keep people out, but also to growing up to also keep myself insulated from being harmed. And I think that the healing is a recursive process. So it's just not a linear thing. It's okay, I just read this book. This thing happens. And I'm healed what I will say.
So you asked two questions about what was that defining moment? I had been in a very stressful situation. Like I was in grad school. And I just was not happy. So I had been taught growing up that. If you go to great schools, if you do what you're supposed to do, the world will open up and life will be great.
And that was not happening. I had checked all the things on all the lists. So I knew from there that I needed help, right? Because clearly, these external things that I was checking off was not really contributing to her inner joy or inner light. And so I started [00:08:00] going to therapy to explore my feelings in general about childhood trauma.
And, just the same issues around how do I open myself up to the possibility of there's more to life than just struggle, or there's more to life than being paranoid. There's more to life than this idea of scarcity, and it's then that I started to put the two and two together that how I did one thing was how I was doing a lot of other things, and one of those other things was how I did money. And one of the big aha moments was out of all this, I was able to have a boyfriend, so someone like me, I like somebody out of all this. And I remember us going from New York to DC like a weekend trip. And by that time we were pretty serious. There was no reason for me. There were no red flags and he's not my husband.
End of the story, happy ending. But going to a gas station and filling up, he asked to borrow my credit card and he could see on my face like the terror and the shock. And I remember in that moment, I was not me and my boyfriend [00:09:00] was not him. I was my mother and he was my father and what I thought was a similar situation where my father had left us, had used my mom to go to medical school and just took advantage of her.
And then I had to begin to see that my mom's reality was her reality and her money story was her money story. And that is when I started to see the difference between an inherited money story that's often unexamined. Right. You have these ideas that you think are so real until you are able for the support of introspection and also just the concrete examples of the opposite of that, being able to see that there are other ways to think that other things to believe and how do I begin to get myself on the path in small ways to begin that and that meant giving him over the credit card and know that he's not going to be, popping bottles and doing all types of crazy things. He just gave us some gas, right?
So that is how I began to be able to [00:10:00] walk myself through this process of healing is those little ways of being able to say, what is the trigger? Okay. So the trigger was asking for the credit card. And then what was my response? It was almost like this feeling, internal feeling of something's going to be taken away from me.
I'm going to be taken advantage of. The answer is no. This happened to my mother. All men are the same. It's just a matter of time. And being able to sit with that. And then, questioning, interrogating those thoughts. If I've been with this man for close to a year by then and he's never proven himself to be someone that's not trustworthy, He's mostly paid.
I've never had an issue. So where are these ideas coming from? Are they even thoughtful and valid? And then giving myself a chance to think differently
Because what's the loss? 40 at the pump, right? And what's the gain? This whole new refreshing world of where love centers, abundance centers, trust centers.
And so I think it's those kinds of things that allows us to begin to heal. And then the great thing about the universe of the world or how we want to call it, you get [00:11:00] lots of examples to try it out. Because I think if I didn't get that example, maybe a couple months later, there would have been another similar example and you get to see how much you grown along the way.
Maggie: I think that's a perfect example and it's so amazing when you can stop in your everyday life and just see it play out. Sometimes I feel like you're almost a third person in this scenario, just watching it. And it's interesting to see that growth because It's not glamorous. There's nothing magical happening, but you're putting the dots are coming together and it's finally interweaving and I think that's such a great example of how, those stories and that mindset relates back to your money and the money stories you have today.
And it seems when you heal this relationship, you also envision what you wanted your life to look like and have that healthy mindset. And what practices, can women use to reframe their financial habits and goals to have these aha experiences as well?
Kara: Well, I think it's important for us to realize that. self aware and look at our behaviors around money currently without a sense of judgment, but a sense of [00:12:00] curiosity.
That talks similar to you saying Maggie about this third person experience. Even saying things like I noticed that I am doing this allows a little separation, right?
You're observing, you're taking low inference notes about a trigger, a response, the trigger and response. And then you be able to see what are some of the patterns? What am I noticing? And I think some people, what ends up happening is that because we live in a world of social media and everything has to be perfect.
They go from a zero to a 10. So it's Oh, I felt deep sadness. I had a panic attack all of a sudden, I can open up my bills with no problem. That often is not the way. Usually it's I'm having this panic attack and I still decide to open it with the support of a friend, and then you begin to get, so you go from like a zero to a two.
a two to a two and a half. And sometimes you revert, but then you continue to progress. So I would say that is one thing is the self awareness aspect of it. And the compassion that comes with just taking observations about what you're doing. I would say second not to be [00:13:00] pandering, but women are often considered the more communal gender.
And so I think not doing it alone. is a key part of eliminating the shame around talking very vulnerably about finances, because what you find is that some of us are killing it professionally and struggling financially, and there's this big gap between the degrees that you have. Dr. Barb on the wall near me and it was going on in your bank account and we don't want to show that and I said, you don't have to do with a whole bunch of people, but someone that you trust.
So there's a level of intimacy that you can establish with someone as you go down this walk together. I would also say is immersing yourself in a world where. The people there are people around you a couple of steps ahead of where you want to be now for some people to be in a place where everything is okay, may not feel realistic or relatable or approachable.
So find someone who admits to struggles, but overall is doing a lot better and then begin to surround [00:14:00] yourself with those kind of people and ask for support. And I would also say, seek professional support. Because like I said, something's how you do one thing is how you do another and looking at some of the key influences in your life.
From whatever moment that sometimes a lot of us are, I would say arrested in. So for there's so many parts of my financial autobiography that were key points of trauma. And so for a lot of us, we're not even aware of what is my money autobiography. So being very aware of what those places are and what kind of love can you give to the 17 year old self or the seven year old self to tell them that they were doing the best that they could with the information that they had, and then that there's a best next step for them without shaming them.
Right? And in addition to that, just practical tools where you give yourself small goals that may not have to be number based. Right. So I would say the fact that I [00:15:00] did not avoid opening up a bill, right? The fact that's a win, right? Talk about weight and like non scale wins. The fact is that I listened to a podcast, right?
The fact is that I called a friend when I wanted to, I felt my emotions were overwhelming me and rather than shop, I talk, right? All these things, giving yourself credit for the non money related financial wins. allows you to begin to change that narrative and get that healing done. And then I would say also in addition to the emotional support, finding a financial advisor or financial coaching, they're different who understands your story, not someone that's going to lay down the law and just be like, get over it.
And this is what it is. That's not what you need. I think being very circumspect, and very protective of your spirit when it comes to your financial healing is a key part of creating a money crew that is going to hold you to the end of the finish line. And one of the things I find and [00:16:00] I've seen this in the work that I've done with women is that the strongest women always wanna come out on top and do it by themselves.
And I'm like, why you don't get a cookie just a whole bunch of people to help you. This is something you need to be carried over the finish line with and just accept the help. Right? No one cares, right? The ultimate, the outcome is that you want the healing.
Barb: Wow, you bring up so many excellent points. I just, I have so many ideas in my head about what you were saying. And it's so funny, we just created a post that said, how you do anything is how you do everything. And when I heard those words come out of your mouth, I was like, we are so aligned here. And I think the word that pops up for me is vulnerability, right?
We have to show we're vulnerable for other women to also feel vulnerable in our presence. Nobody's perfect. Like they talk about social media, right?
Kara: Right.
Barb: It's not, everybody does not lead a perfect life and we all have our struggles. And sometimes, it wasn't until we've been talking about money [00:17:00] mindset, people don't really understand that their money behaviors are coming from all of these
situations that they've been brought up in some healthy, some not, who knows? No judgment, but it just is what it is. And I love how you are being so financially conscious. And something that Bene Brown once said is we have a knee jerk reaction and I say out loud, this is what I'm making up in my head.
Like, when a situation comes up, I might say to my husband, oh well. what I'm making up in my head is, you're mad because blah, blah, blah. And you'll be like, I'm not mad at all, but I'm just making that up in my head because that's my knee jerk reaction based on what other past things may have happened to me, but being brave enough and courageous enough to voice where you're at, to really assess where you're at, To a therapist or a friend or like you say, a crew or community about where people are at with their money is so important [00:18:00] because only then, like you say, can we help one another pass the finish line.
So I just love what you've been saying. It's so beautiful.
Kara: Well, thank you. I mean it. I think that a lot of times, I think that the current personal finance world can be extremely punitive, extremely shame filled and judgmental. And sometimes you find that there's a big disconnect between some of the people their approach to finances, and then when you actually peel back the curtains, what they're actually doing.
Right? And so why do that? And then in two, what's the purpose? There's no place for shame and more harm when you're learning something new, right? Like how often you're learning something, however old you are, when you're learning your finances, you're learning something new and you're not supposed to be good at it at the beginning.
That's the whole point of growth. So I think when we begin to step back and take stock [00:19:00] of this is a skill that I'm learning in addition to the trauma that I have learned and the baggage I carry with learning this new goal and this new skill, there's going to be some fear attached to it possibly.
But that doesn't mean that it will be forever. And that doesn't mean that I'm uniquely flawed.
Maggie: I was doing this new workout program and they're like, you have to enjoy being a beginner again, and sometimes as you get older, it's I'm not young anymore. I'm not a beginner. Age and beginning don't have anything to do with each other. And it's frustrating to just enjoy that because one day you won't be a beginner again.
And I don't know, it's it is a process that you can't rush, you do have to enjoy the long along the way.
Barb: Tell us a little bit more about the social justice component around your teaching and how you wanted to create change beyond the classroom.
Kara: In my previous life, and I still consider myself an educator, I was a classroom teacher, so I taught the little ones. I was a kindergarten and a fourth [00:20:00] grade teacher, then I became a school administrator. Yeah, I
Maggie: I couldn't do it. I could not do it. Go you. Go.
Kara: yeah. And then for some more interesting stuff, I became a middle school administrator, so it was all the way interesting every day.
And I liked how saucy and just random middle schoolers were. But they also are very straightforward, like they tell you exactly how you feel it. And so going back to that social justice component, what I noticed as an educator was that we were trying to close the, say, the achievement gap by giving students.
And predominantly marginalized communities access to education. What I found was that they often became people like me who got these degrees and was in debt and then didn't know they had to pay. So I was like this achievement gap and this wealth gap. There's a gap between bringing the two together.
So there's this push for social mobility without actually giving us a goal and the skill set to actually leverage it. It's [00:21:00] highly problematic. So when we talk about in outside the classroom, in my small way, when I was getting out of debt, I was teaching my kids about wealth and piggy banks.
And in addition to getting them dictionaries, like it was my thing, right? When I became an administrator, I was teaching my young teachers. I was like, I see you are door dashing Starbucks and more power to you, but have you started preparing for retirement? Right.
And and I want you to have your delicious beverage midday, but also don't forget to buy the stock.
Do you know what I mean? Or don't forget to invest in the things that you purchase. And so in and outside the classroom it was my financial wellness and financial literacy just became a part of life for me that I saw people who clearly were capable because they had gotten a job. We're able to keep a job and do the job well, but they will still lacking, in terms of their ability to know what was due to them, what vehicles they could use to grow their wealth.
And so I was saying, so at the student level, I saw [00:22:00] them growing to people like me, and then as an administrator and as a mentor to like younger teachers. even older teachers, who are older than me just not aware of that. And so I find that a piece of the social activism is being able to communicate the steps to leverage your current position and also begin to have financial wellness workshops.
For the whole family, because I find that in the current wave of bringing financial literacy to schools. I think it's amazing, but what I do think is missing is the intergenerational part. In theory, the idea of having students learn about financial on this. I remember my fourth grade teacher was things taught us about the stock market.
My mom's an immigrant from Antigua and the stock market doesn't really exist in Antigua. She knew how to work and she knew real estate. So she knew how to save and she knew how to buy. So the gap is, I said, no, I want to buy a McDonald's stock because, everyone likes McDonald's when you're in fourth grade.
But now as an adult, [00:23:00] I'm thinking if I didn't have a mother who was still educated in other ways, but she wasn't educated in the ways of American wealth building leavers. If I'm teaching now in 2025 students about the same thing that I learned about 20 years ago or 30 years ago as a student and parents don't know, where's it really going to go? So you need to have a closing the gap where you're teaching the family about wealth and having specific sets of conversations where the parent gets to heal their relationship with money so their child doesn't have to heal their relationship with money. And so they go off, whether it be to college or career with a deeper understanding of how wealth is created, how wealth is preserved, and how wealth is passed down.
So that is how I see the intersection of the social justice piece. Activism in and outside the classroom and just in general, a request for us to be a little bit more forward thinking about bringing the people who are going to be directly [00:24:00] impacted by finances together. So there's actually major progress.
Barb: That's brilliant. So much of the financial conversation might be between the parents if they're having good conversations, but how often do you talk with your children about it, right? And if they're not getting financial literacy in school, we're just picking up whatever we're picking up, from
action, inaction, reaction, right? To money challenges and all of that. I love it as a complete family unit. And understanding it's a life skill that we all need to learn. I think that's so needed and so powerful. And there's so much more we could be doing with that model.
Maggie: And American finances are so confusing. It isn't just, money in and money out. We have these taxes. We have these different way of creating wealth. So It makes so much sense. Even growing up here, I don't understand it all, right? So it makes sense that this is your second language or you're trying to learn it or all these different things like of course you're not gonna know it.
It's complex and it's all [00:25:00] in these Abbreviations that nobody understands. And bringing that together, it just yeah, it's just, duh, it makes so much sense to go together and to make that work and to then have all those, the whole family succeed is what you really want.
Because I do understand the cycle of, they told me to do all these things and I did all these things and I'm still not, a step further. So it's really making about that next step. Well, I wanted to get into you getting your EDM. Still no small feet. But I know you were incredibly intentional about financing your graduate degree from finding grants and having support from the people around you. So what would you give to women who are considering, advancing their education further, but, do see that financial barrier?
Kara: Well, I would say in my case, so a couple of things. One, I go to the programs that offer the most money. So my grad degree, I had two grad degrees, and the last one's from Columbia and playing up Columbia gave the most money. And so I was going to go because if they didn't give me money, I'm going to go to some place else that gave me [00:26:00] the most money because I also have to think about what was the trajectory of my career with this extra degree.
So that's the first thing do I need this degree to move forward or am I using this as not a stall tactic, but is this really necessary for me to get a degree or could a certificate do right? Or is it just something for like edification? So I would say one is think about, who's going to give you the most money?
And how is it going to directly impact your bottom line in terms of salary? Because a lot of times after our first degree or second degree, there has to be a return on investment because the next degree may have diminishing returns. And I know you mentioned the E. D. And I thought about it. And so it's a great way to segue.
I thought about it, but I was like, I'd rather leverage my EDM, use my youth, like my key productive years, and then later getting EDD if I choose to. But for me, in my mind, to halt my prime earning [00:27:00] years for a degree for something that I could get The same leverage or mileage with a shorter and less costly degree while I could still work, just didn't make number sense to me.
But if you have the opportunity to do that I encourage you to explore it. But finding opportunities that still allow you to work and get your degree. Maybe a way to go, especially if you're a working parent, single mom. I would also say who can be your support network, speaking of which. We know that you're the one that needed to cross the stage, but you know there's a whole bunch of people behind you that made that possible.
And does that mean that you pull together your community and your village to help you get through that degree, like what conversations you're going to have, say, if you're a partner, and how is it going to look with the the divvying of responsibilities for that period of time? Is it going to be 90 meaning,
he or she does 90 percent and I do 10 percent because it's an understanding that this is going to be the degree and this [00:28:00] is going to be the time. So I think those kind of what's going on behind the closed doors in terms of like, how am I going to finish this degree? Cause I don't want to waste my money and my time.
And then outside, who's giving you the most money? Do they have flexibility? What are like the conditions and what kind of also networking? Am I going to get out of this? Who and all is going to be in this program that I can connect to build real life relationships and future connections for my career. So those are a few things I would consider when thinking about, getting another degree. Especially when you have to measure the cost benefit of it at this particular time in your life.
Barb: Yeah it's time, it's money, like you say, it's who's in your circle, who else gets impacted all very good things to consider, especially if you're taking student loans out to do it, because student loans have impacted women greatly who have invested in their education maybe gotten a great job and then gotten married and then [00:29:00] decide to have children.
So she may still be paying on those student loans all that time, even if she's then out of the workforce because she's caring for family and she's still paying for the student loan. So all of that really needs to be considered because they have far reaching impacts when you're talking about signing up for those loans.
So something to consider as well, but let's switch a little bit to the systemic challenges that women face when they're trying to build wealth. What are some of your ideas on how we can reclaim control and create a financial foundation that reflects worth and potential? What advice do you give in your community or to women on how they can really work to build their own, I would say, independent wealth?
Kara: Well, I would first I would first say that mindset, we're examining the gendered assumptions about wealth that don't even benefit you. And then finding data that actually supports, I want to [00:30:00] say women's superiority, but I would say women are just as good as, so we can keep it, fair, right?
So there's a ton of studies out there that show that women because they may be more measured, because they may be more patient, actually outperform male counterparts when it comes to long term investing. One. Two, in Germany, the household is where women tend to be caregivers and decision makers.
That skill set alone has prepared you to be able to manage money. You do it all the time, but similar to what Maggie was talking about, they use these highfalutin words, but we know what dollar cost averaging is when you go to Costco and something's on sale for 10, and the next time it's on for 20, but you get them both at the same time, so the dollar cost average is 15, right?
You know that if you kept on investing in purchasing of a stock or an index [00:31:00] fund and you continue to buy every month, Whether it's high or whether it's low, it's going to average out to not being as low as the lowest cost, but not being as high as the highest cost. So I think we need to begin to reclaim our space already in the economics and the finances of it all because we do it all the time.
I think we need to look to other women who don't also gatekeep information. And who simplify information to let us already know that we're already doing it. We just have to have the confidence. And I think part of a big piece about when we're talking about women and reclaiming it is the confidence gap around money.
Like you don't even realize that you're doing these amazing things because they've always been gendered and played down because it's women's work. So there's that. I would say also not being afraid to make mistakes. I think that women in general there's always these studies that show that when women [00:32:00] don't feel that they're 100 percent qualified for the job, they take themselves out of the running.
versus men who be like, I don't know, maybe, it's today's Tuesday. Let me apply for the job easy. What happens? Like this level of confidence that you don't even know where it comes from. I think adopting an attitude of not personalizing failure, difficult work, setbacks and this letting go of perfection will also help women.
And I think also If we normalize not being people pleasers as part of what it means to be a woman and we don't center or suspiciously view women who like wealth just for the sake of wealth, not because they want to, save the children, not because they want to make the world a better place.
Just because they want the wealth. I think it gives other women permission to step into the world of earning without having to justify why they're doing it. And then the other tactical pieces like, join an [00:33:00] investment club, pick up a book, that's at your level and read at your pace.
But I think those are beginning ways to begin to prime your, I'll even say your environment, like prune people from your world that hold on to these archaic ways and unhelpful ways that hold women back from investing, including the men and the women that do that. And also even the institutions that do that.
And that's very complicated because some of them are very dear to us, but not looking to them as the source of advice. So let's just say for the sake of religion, say whatever religious faith you come from, the religion says that wealth is not good, or women shouldn't desire this. Well, we don't go to our religious institution for wealth advice.
We go for spiritual guidance, right? So that's not your, that's not your forte, right? Amen. Exactly. We go someplace else. And so putting things in their right place to get the information that you need to get to your goals.
Maggie: You have so many [00:34:00] great examples that just show exactly how they connect. And I just want to reiterate about, being okay making those mistakes because so often since we don't move off the mark because we don't feel 100 percent. And sometimes we just got to move off that mark, and do something because something's better than nothing.
Was it perfect? Absolutely not. But did I move? Did I, I do something a little bit and now I know what to fix next time, because otherwise you'll never know some things, what you'll need to fix until you're there in that moment, and so you have to make those mistakes. So it's cool. As long as you're learning from them and you're understanding that, right?
Kara: Yeah. Yeah. I just want to add to that. You said you made the perfect point because I think sometimes in high achieving women or women who want to do the best that they can for people around them and themselves, they think certain things can't be replaced. So you make a mistake and then what the world ends, right?
Like it's like you can't recover. so I think it's the other piece about the mindset is what's my default [00:35:00] cognitive distortion. Like mine has been to catastrophize. If I do this and this is going to happen, I'll never ever be able to recover. How many of us do that, right? So when it comes to money, exactly.
So and then when it comes to the things that you actually do well, you may minimize it like anyone could have done that. So we're coming and going. It's you don't give yourself credit for the things you do. And then the mistakes that you make, you blow up. So that's the other thing.
And I would say the last thing just in terms of women is to maximize and take low hanging fruit starting now. But if you're looking around at your job, talk to your HR person, scheduled and okay, I need to figure out what is going on and dedicate time to be to look at your finances. And I would also say, even with that is it.
Maximize or whatever your company has to get. If you work for a company, if you work for yourself, speak to someone to maximize and put those things in place. But I would say the second thing is find a part of finances that you actually like. Sometimes you always go for the thing I hate the most of the thing I should be doing first.
[00:36:00] Maybe not right when it comes to finances. Maybe you should focus on. Okay, I'm not so when I look at the totality of the different things I can do with finances, improve my credit, get out of debt, save more. What's the lowest hanging fruit when it comes to those areas? Let me start there, build my muscle and my confidence.
And then, okay, that wasn't so bad. Let me try something. So that's the last piece I'll add to that.
Barb: Yeah that's perfect. I often think about that saying, fall down nine times, get up ten. Right? And when you have like your crew or your community around you, they're going to help pick you up and keep moving on. Right? We don't learn if we're not making mistakes. Right?
Kara: Exactly.
Barb: I guess we could say now, what are, you've given us some great tips, but do you have any other tips that you can give women for budgeting and planning, especially in an uncertain economy?
Kara: Yeah, I would say begin to track how you spend without trying to gain the system. So just to go stop. Don't pretend that you're gonna not spend on that. Spend on it. See how it feels. See how much you [00:37:00] actually spend. Right? And then go through the line items and see, was it worth it? Or could this last a little bit longer?
And then from there, that's when you begin to prune. I think sometimes when we talk about budgeting, we always go for the thing that we like the most. Rather than finding ways to eliminate the things that are duplicates, triplicates are no longer part of our value system. So when I think about so similar to that, when you think about budgeting, thinking about what's really important to you at this time in your life, and then making sure that we don't get distracted with other things that are important to other people, or sometimes conveniences that get stuck, or the feelings that trigger us to like, Spend or get sidetracked and what our goals are.
And I would also say when it comes to Little things like here. I have like my little I put money, it's like nothing cute, but this has change in it. So my loose change every day goes, yeah, that's loud, right? Like loose change goes in there. Simple things, simple wins every day that show [00:38:00] that you're making progress are a key part of being able to make big changes.
Right. I would also say just in general when you think about your financial identity, and this is really important piece for women I talk to is. For whatever trauma that we've had growing up, there's still something redeeming about that money mindset. And I like to give the example of, I could save 20 from 10, right?
There was nothing that I couldn't save from because I hoarded money growing up, right? Because of just the fear of not having. And when not checked, it can be maladaptive and small and shrinking. But one thing about me, I'm never going to have a lack of cash flow, right? So similarly, someone who's been extremely generous, don't begrudge your generosity because of the debt.
Know that you have a love and a generosity that you want to make sure it doesn't take away from your other financial goals. So being able [00:39:00] to see the redeeming parts of your financial identity is a key part, I think, of being able to look at the tools of financial wellness with a level of enthusiasm or at least neutrality, right, that you don't have to be, you don't have to have money mindset envy, so to speak, money archetype envy, so to speak, in order for you to do well, because we all bring our strengths and our areas of growth.
To our finances.
Maggie: this is just a great episode. I'm so stoked we had you on today. And before we wrap up, I want to ask you one final question. And that is a question we ask everybody, and that is, what does financial freedom look like to you?
Kara: I think financial freedom to me looks like money not being the primary reason for purchasing or not purchasing something. And I think financial freedom also comes with time freedom. That you don't, you're not exchanging your time for money because you're able to buy your time back.
Maggie: That's great. I like that one. We haven't [00:40:00] heard that yet. So thank you, Kara, for coming on today. You can check her out at the Frugal Framonista. Grab her book, follow her on, all the socials. We'll make sure to have all of those in the show notes. So thank you again, and we'll talk to everyone soon.
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