Women & Money: The Shit We Don't Talk About!
Women & Money: The Shit We Don't Talk About!
The Hidden Financial Cost of Friendships with Jack Howard
Friendship should fill you up, not drain your bank account.
This week on Women & Money: The Shit We Don’t Talk About, we’re joined by Jacqueline “Jack” Howard, the Head of Money Wellness at Ally Bank. She serves as a strategic program and communication lead to establish Ally as the leading voice in financial health and wellness, with a focus on money psychology and behavioral financial education.
In this episode, Jack opens up about the hidden financial cost of friendships. From brunches and birthday trips to FOMO-fueled spending, women often feel pressure to say yes even when it stretches their budgets. Jack shares her own experiences with scarcity mindset and credit card debt, plus the powerful shift that happens when you align your money with your values.
00:00 Introduction to Return on Joy
05:52 Introducing Jack Howard from Ally Bank
06:20 Jack Howard's Career Journey
07:58 Personal Money Stories and Behavioral Finance
16:25 The Hidden Cost of Friendship
19:24 Generational Differences in Social Spending
23:46 Creative Ways to Maintain Friendships
27:53 Navigating FOMO and Financial Transparency
34:07 Creative Low-Cost Social Activities
36:13 The Importance of Financial Values in Friendships
🎧 Listen now to learn how to protect your wallet, strengthen your friendships, and live a financially fearless life.
Jack reminds us that personal finance is personal. The key isn’t doing what everyone else is doing, it’s knowing your values and spending unapologetically on what brings you joy. Join us on Oct 23rd for our next Money Talks: How to Protect Your Financial Goals Without Sacrificing Your Social Life. Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions!
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[00:00:00]
Maggie: Return on Joy. Do you feel like you spend things that you get like a return on joy? Have you ever thought about that?
Dr. Barb: I don't know if I've thought about it in those terms, but I do know when I spend money. It's typically based on my value system. I don't spend willy-nilly, I know when I spend money, it's consciously based on my value system.
Maggie: So what was the last thing that gave you a good ROJ Return on Joy? You like that acronym?
Dr. Barb: I do. Um, I really like to get some healthy food at Trader Joe's and make some good meals for dinner because. At the end of the day, I'm really tired. I like to plop down on the couch and have a good, healthy meal that's easy to make and enjoy with my husband and call it a day. So I pick up things that I know are gonna taste good, they're healthy, they're easy to make.
And that brings me joy because I know I'm eating at home, eating something that I like. It's healthy, it's not gonna take a long time to make. And it puts a bookmark [00:01:00] in my day that it's the end of the day and we're eating a nice dinner together.
Maggie: Wow with somebody you love.
Dr. Barb: It is true.
Maggie: My return on joy, thanks for asking. Were the flowers. I purchased my little zinnia seeds. I have watched them grow every day and wash 'em bloom, and every day I go out and I cheer them on and I tell them how pretty they're looking. And I love those things that give you like the, just the little bit of joy in every day.
Because like a great Europe trip all about it. But days get long. You've gotta have the little joys in your day. Really good cup of coffee talking to your flowers. Made a good a Claire cake. These, those are my returns on joy.
Dr. Barb: Yeah, those are great too. And my extra special treat after dinner is usually a good yummy treat that I've also gotten from Trader Joe's. We are not sponsored by Trader Joe's, but they can sponsor us if they would like. I usually get a little dark chocolate or dark chocolate mint or something like [00:02:00] that I have for dessert, and I really love those and that brings me joy at the end of the day.
Maggie: Do you spend a lot of money going out with friends to have return on joy?
Dr. Barb: I don't really, I should go see my friends more often. But when I do, it's a very special time. I love, love, love seeing my friends. When I do, it's just typically out for a casual dinner. Nothing expensive. When you come in, what I love to do with you when we go out is we just love to go thrifting. And it's more just about the walking, the thrifting, the talking, the spending time together and just mindless chatter and fun.
Maggie: got a lot of mindless chatter.
Dr. Barb: And we just enjoy spending time together doing something like that, which doesn't cost a lot of money, but we enjoy our time together,
Maggie: You know,
For our listeners, my grandpa had a song your Father.
Once Grandma died, he made all of us sing it Enjoy yourself. It's later than you think. Enjoy yourself. Well, you're still in the pink. [00:03:00] The years go by as quickly as a wink. So enjoy yourself. Enjoy yourself. It's later than you think.
Dr. Barb: And I think I really like your thinking around finding some joy in the everyday and knowing that it doesn't have take a lot of money to really find joy. It's just really finding those things. Throughout the day that bring you joy and investing in it.
And even if it's, an $8 cup of coffee that some people would blk at, if that brings you joy, have at it. Right. If it's, a hundred dollars pair of jeans that you're gonna wear for 10 years, have at it, whatever it might
be.
Maggie: There's nothing better than a really nice pair of jeans that make you feel like, damn, I look good.
Dr. Barb: So you need to really find those things that bring you joy. Invest in them and enjoy them.
Maggie: And so in this podcast episode we had Jack from Ally Bank who dove all into about values, return on joy, and really spending and having your friendships [00:04:00] also make sure there's a return on joy and not overspending.
Dr. Barb: Yeah. How, what are ways that you can get together with your friends? Without it really breaking the bank and being, truly authentic with, let's not go out and spend hundreds of dollars out to dinner all the time. Let's find ways that we can gather together and, be financially conscious and still have joy and. Come together and do what we love to do together and find out what's the value system? What do I love to do? What do you love to do? What can we do together? For instance, some of her ideas were, I love to just walk around the track. Let's walk and talk, which of course we love to do.
Maggie: It is like what we do in the thrift
store, walk and talk.
Dr. Barb: I know.
It's the trifecta. Spending time together, walking and thrifting. Or I loved her idea of volunteering somewhere together like Feed My Starving Children or something
Maggie: Or a dog shelter. I love dogs except we might leave with 12.
Dr. Barb: I know that's the problem,
Maggie: That's return on Joy. [00:05:00]
Dr. Barb: It's big return. 12, I bought 12. There's big, a big way of returning on big big joy.
But yeah, I think what she's got so much great energy. I think her ideas are fabulous and we just had so much fun in that conversation.
Maggie: I think we're done here and we should pass this off to the full episode. Let's get
started.
Dr. Barb: Let's do it.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don't talk about.
Maggie: We are in for a fun episode today with Jack Howard, and so we are very excited to have her on from Ally [00:06:00] Bank. So before we dive into our conversation, Jack, could you introduce a little bit about who you are, what you do, all that good stuff?
Jacqueline: Sure. So as you mentioned, I'm Jack Howard and I serve as Head of Money Wellness for Ally, and I bet everyone's wondering what does that even mean? What is Head of Money Wellness? Well I was given a amazing opportunity to. Worked here at Ally for the last 15 years, and I can honestly say my time here, every single position I've had has gotten me to this moment.
So I started out in our corporate citizenship function where I helped to lead all of our giving back efforts around financial literacy, employee giving and corporate giving to nonprofits. And from there I did that for about 10 years and then was given the opportunity to have a stretch role and serve as chief of staff for the president of our invest business.
And I did that for about a year while her chief of staff was out on maternity leave and decided to stay and help launch our wealth advisory business. Why is that so [00:07:00] important? Because during that time for the launch of the wealth advisory business our leadership decided to ground the consultation journey in money psychology.
And you know how when you think of those moments in your career or life where you are, like that's the moment that changed everything. And for me it was when we were creating the consultation journey and one of the first questions we decided to ask clients is, what is your first memory of money? And for me with my background in financial education, from corporate citizenship also helped to launch our financial social inclusion efforts.
So I have a heart for women and really a heart for underserved communities in this wealth conversation because historically we've been left out. And when I heard that question, what is your first memory of money? And really it said with the goal of understanding how your early memories, your beliefs impactful moments in society, how has that shaped your relationship with money?
How has it impact how you interact with money today? And for me, like the clouds [00:08:00] opened up, angels are singing because it just really connected the dots for me from, my 15 years of working of, although we tell people what they should do for credit and budget and you should invest and you should say for retirement and spend less than you make.
Most people just don't do it. And there's a lot of shame that comes with that. There's a lot of really frustration for me, even personally. I've had my own money story issues. And it wasn't until I learned more about money psychology and behavioral finance where I began to understand how the behaviors that we have with money really impact our ability to implement the skills.
So fast forward, I stayed with our wealth team for a few years and then got the itch to try something new again. Went back to our leadership at Ally. Shout out to Ally because they really allowed me to be super innovative and disruptive with my career. Kind of charting my own path, but went back to our leadership and said, I really think this money psychology is [00:09:00] what's next for banking.
I really think it's what's next for this conversation about not only financial education for our underserved communities, but it's really for everybody because regardless of how much money you have. What your net worth is. We all have a money story. I can be honest and say I've talked to people with millions of dollars who are afraid to spend any of it because they have a scarcity mindset.
And I've talked to people who have no money, who overspend and have consumption issues. So that got me to this role now as Head of Money Wellness, where we were able to create a curriculum called Ally Money Roots which is completely free. And it's grounded in behavioral finance and money psychology, financial health and wellness for workshops that are free really for the community and our customers, with the goal of helping people to have a better relationship with money.
So I think I may have the best job at the company.
Dr. Barb: Sounds like you're in love with your job. That's fantastic.
Jacqueline: [00:10:00] Yes, I am. So it's one of those things where, i've had a passion for helping people to really understand money. And it's also personal too. So let me say that I've had my own ups and downs with my money story, credit card debt, having a scarcity mindset. There's so many layers to it, and especially shame because I work in finance.
I'm a finance professional. I'm an accredited financial counselor, so I'm giving you advice and I can't even follow it myself. So for me, this journey professionally and personally of really getting to the roots of my money issues personally, and then using that experience, deepening my expertise to have the opportunity to help other people.
So I deeply enjoy the work.
Maggie: It is so interesting. I mean, we've done so many of these episodes and how much it is behavioral finance, how much it does not matter how much money you have. Like you can still have these beliefs and we all know the information, but it's so much harder to practice and it's just gives you kind of that assurance and takes [00:11:00] some of that shame away when it's like, hey, she's an accredited financial counselor and still credit, like, struggles with it.
We've had millionaires, they still struggle with it. We've had people who hardly earn money, but they might have their own struggles as well. It's not always, oh, I need to earn more. I need to earn more. That's not always the solution, it is about digging deeper inside, which sometimes is not, it's like, uh, earning more would be easier.
But, you gotta face these things and we have it at all levels. It's so interesting.
Jacqueline: Yeah. And the thing is, I found because another great thing about working for allies that I've had a great career and with that I've grown in my income. But until you address those root issues, you'll just be in a cycle. So I found myself for my money story. It was deeply ingrained in, you work really hard, you make a lot of money, you create some debt, you pay it off, and then you're on this hamster wheel of never truly getting to financial independence, which is a shift that I made from this work of really using money as a tool for joy, [00:12:00] really getting grounded in my values, realizing that.
No matter how many pairs of shoes I buy, it's not gonna deal with some of my root issues that really require therapy. And it wasn't until really going into this work and then creating money roots. And I get to, I have the pleasure of hearing the stories of so many people with their early memories and how.
Things that they learned from their parents is showing up and seeing them have those aha moments of connecting the dots is truly powerful. And it my hope for this work is that we start to have more conversations like this transparent conversations of, I'm ashamed because I work for a bank and I've had a history with credit card debt.
I'm ashamed because I've had a class before where a woman was on the class and said. I have money in the bank, but I'm afraid to spend it. I haven't bought a new bra in years, right? So these are things, and that's the truth, but specifically with women as nurturers, we will [00:13:00] hold on to every dime. But when it comes to giving to others, for some people, it's easy to do that, but you can't do nice things for yourself.
So giving yourself permission. So I've had the pleasure of hearing these stories, experiencing it myself, and by having this conversation. Letting people know that yeah, you do have a relationship with money. It's backed up with some emotions and behaviors that you may not wanna keep, but that's okay. We don't have to be ashamed of it.
We can realize our past, we can realize our, behaviors that we wanna shift and we can always move forward and do something different. So that's one of the goals with Money Roots is to, one, help you to acknowledge like that this is really a thing. And then from there, giving you the tools to move forward to do something different if you wanna change.
Dr. Barb: Yeah, so important and so interesting, and I think it's also acknowledging the money messaging that comes at us every single day as well. From marketing, advertising from our community society, our church, [00:14:00] our family. It's usually save for women, and invest for men.
So the messages are quite different and is it true? You have to ask yourself, is this true? Is it accurate? Do I believe this? How is this impacting me? And I think we need to start questioning and not just taking for granted that those messages are actually true.
Jacqueline: And I think we gotta question everything. So when I've done this work on my Money beliefs and working with people, I think oftentimes the things that we've been told growing up are so ingrained in us that you think it's affect when in reality our money decisions. Really should be based upon our values.
So one of the classes we have is called Money and Values, where we go deep on what are your values, not my values, not what you saw on tv, not what you're hearing in from media outlets. What is most important to your life? And for you it may be. Right now I'm really into cookies. For me, one of my values is really [00:15:00] enjoying.
Caramel chocolate chip cookies with sea salt. So I'm gonna splurge on that and I'm not gonna feel bad about it for somebody else. It may be, I don't know, but we have to find what are those things that you value and knowing that it's okay to spend on those or we're gonna pull back on other things.
What is true for you? Personal finance is personal. What is true for you may be different for someone else. And really getting to the core of what your values are and living that life. And that's when we get to what I love to call return on joy. So really looking at money as a vehicle for you to have return on joy for you to live out those values.
And I'll be honest, until I shifted my perspective to look at money in that way. It was always I'm playing catch up. I'm not really happy with the things that I'm buying because they're not solving deeper issues. But when you shift to really understand the behaviors and where they're coming from, and then shifting your spending to value-based [00:16:00] spending, where you're looking to have, like, I'm spending to have happiness.
And when I look at it through that lens, it really shifted my relationship with money. And I'm hopeful that the folks that take our classes feel the same way.
Maggie: part of those values and the return on joy, like. I know one of my values that's important to me is like experiences, especially with like loved ones and friends, right? Especially since I work from home. So getting out and doing those things is an important value to me.
And so what we really wanna dive in today is kind of that hidden cost of friendship. I know we picked this topic because Ally did a study and kind of dove into this hidden cost of friendship, and so it's just such an intriguing idea. So can you kind of start with why Ally made a decision to dive into this topic?
Jacqueline: Yeah, and you know what? Since we've done this survey, so it's really looking at when we think of our friendships. We're finding that our younger generation specifically. Values, relationships they value. And [00:17:00] that's surprising to me. 'cause I thought with social media that wasn't gonna be the case. But they value these in-person experiences.
However, it's at the detriment of their bank account to where you feel like you have to go to the happy hour, you have to go to the brunch. We have to do all these things. So Ally, I love it here. We are able to do all this research on various topics. So we wanted to do a deeper dive. We had some research back in May on really understanding, financial anxiety where we found for our younger generation, they also are having a lot of financial anxiety. So when you think of even with experiences, we're finding that with social media, they're doing things, having experiences and buying things. All of the goal of. Posting it on social media.
So that got us to thinking like, let's dig into this a little bit more. And we looked at the cost of friendship specifically for Gen Z. And what we're finding is that they wanna have those friendships. It's very important, but it is at the cost of their bank account. So I'm [00:18:00] here to say, when we think of our wellbeing, so.
What I want people to do more now than ever, especially since anxiety is so high with money right now, is I want you to look at money from the lens of your wellbeing. So the same approach that you have for your fitness for your friendships, that you have for your career, how you show up in your community.
Your health, I want you to look at money as a area of wellbeing, and with that in mind, we have to do things to cultivate our wellbeing with money. One of the best things that you could do to cultivate your wellbeing with money is using it for friendships, is using it for experiences. It's using it to give to others instead of spending it on things for yourself.
If you wanna use money to buy happiness, that's one of the best ways to do it. So with that in mind, we have this balance of. Yes, I want you to use money to support your friendships. However, I don't want you to go into debt doing it. [00:19:00] So I'm here to say like, let's keep it up. Let's use money. But let's look at it through the lens of what are creative ways for me to meet that need of having friendships of using money to increase my wellbeing by spending time with my friends and using money, but how can we do it in creative ways to ensure that.
We not only can say yes today, but we also can retire at some point in the future. So it's definitely that balance.
Dr. Barb: Yeah it's so intriguing to me because it seems like that generation is spending so much more money than we would ever at that age spend on things like, brunches and going out to eat and things like these destination showers and these destination, golf vacations or things like that, which when I was that age, that would be the furthest thing from my mind in terms of affordability, but it just seems almost the norm.
And I know your studies did [00:20:00] show that Gen Z and millennials, they spend about $250 a month on just social activities. Did that number surprise you?
Jacqueline: Yeah, well, you know what? I am a millennial and I have a Gen Z kid and a Gen Alpha kid. And I think that what we're seeing is social media. So for my generation, and I'm an older millennial, I'll say that for my generation, if I said no, and I've done this, I did this in my thirties, I've said no to going to a wedding because I wanted to pay off my student loan debt.
For me, I wasn't on Instagram 24 7 where I could see my friends at the wedding, and now you have fomo, fear of missing out. You're feeling like they're creating these memories. And now I won't be a part of the friendship circle. That is less of a issue for me. But when we think of our younger generation who have grown up with social media, it's a blessing and a curse,
you're getting all this exposure to the world. It is funny [00:21:00] 'cause on social media I would not have known about all of these destinations abroad if it wasn't for social media. We, I didn't have that growing up. However, now you can say, Hey, give me an itinerary for Paris and look on TikTok and find it.
So we have to keep in mind that just the exposure that they're getting from social media. Which is great because you get to learn things, but then it creates this feeling of you have to keep up. So now it's not, I'm keeping up with my immediate circle of friends who are probably in the same income bracket as me.
Now you're competing with the entire world of experiences and that's overwhelming. So when we say we didn't spend like that, I think it just wasn't. There weren't those pressures. And we definitely have to take into account the pressure that our younger generation that they're under, not only with just like the big trips and things like that, but it's also you see something and you could just click and buy it in a second.
So it's really this mindless [00:22:00] spending which makes me get back to values-based spending and just. Pausing. Let's give it 48 hours before we make any financial decisions, or let's do a check-in to see if it aligns with our values, because again, that's how we get to that return on joy with money, which will hopefully help us to not get into this place of creating debt.
So it's definitely different for every generation. I completely
Maggie: I thought that was pretty average. I wasn't actually too surprised by that. 'Cause you think about like four weeks, one weekend you grab dinner with some friends, maybe a couple drinks, which adds up, some of these pickleball courts that you could rent or, $60 an hour.
I mean, these things like you think you're just. Going to play pickleball with girlfriends at the, we have a place called Chicken and Pickle and it adds up, especially I find if you're drinking, because each drink these days is like $13. So nothing about the two 50 I found surprising.
But I know your report also kind of touched on that women really feel this financial strain of friendship more [00:23:00] than men. And so I'd be interested, Jack, to see, what are some of those factors driving that difference as I know women are so about that community and about having their girls around and doing the things.
But also know that sometimes we're really satisfied just wandering around the TJ Maxx.
Jacqueline: So I think that definitely for women we're seeing that. There tends to be more of a need to be with your friends, right? We're just a little bit more social. But with that comes higher ticket items. So with women, you're looking at bridal showers, you're looking at the bachelorette party, it's the brunch, it's the vacation for my birthday, and then you gotta go to everybody's birthday vacation in your friend group.
So now you got five birthday trips per year. So I think for women, we're taking on that cost. When I think we can be creative. So some things that I've done with my friends and my pushback has been for eating. Like I simply just cannot eat this much because it's not only impacting my bank account, but it's impacting my waistline.
So [00:24:00] I made the rule of come work out with me, come to the gym with me. Another option is find out from your friends. What community organizations they support, what volunteer organizations they support. And you can make that an outing of, okay, let's go volunteer with my favorite nonprofit a DIY spy night.
I do karaoke with my friends and that's free. So I think it's also. When we talk about those beliefs, we gotta have a reset on the beliefs that we have around friendships. Let's rethink, we gotta question everything. So if we know that the goal is to be with our friends, but everybody's doing brunch, let's question it.
Can we do our own brunch? Because ultimately the goal is for us to spend time with each other. And when you begin to question the why behind the why, and the why is I need to spend time with you. That's what's important to me. Now, it opens up so many more opportunities to have fun with your friends and still keep your [00:25:00] bank account.
Intact. So again, a vision board party is a good one. I've even done with some of my girlfriends, actually, when I first graduated from college, we created a money club where we would meet once per month and every one of my girlfriends would own it per month. And we would learn about everything from five 20 nines to 4 0 1 Ks and this was 5 29 before we even had kids.
but that was our way of socializing with each other. And not breaking the bank. So I think there has to be a level of creativity while also understanding that we do wanna see each other. We wanna have those moments specifically for women to hang out with each other. And being thoughtful too in the friendship group of realizing that we gotta have some level of transparency when everyone can't do it, and making that okay.
And then also having the ability to make adjustments to accommodate everybody in the group.
Maggie: Yeah, I definitely feel you on sometimes like going out to eat too much and you're like, all right, we don't need anymore large meals. And for women I find it [00:26:00] so often it's just like, we need a place to chat. We're just gonna be talking the whole time. So, I mean, even like, my friend and I just have some great memories of like, when I helped her move and cleaned out her closet, and we went through all her clothes like.
It took a couple hours and we just had like some great conversation.
Jacqueline: You just wanna be together. I feel that with my girlfriend. Like, we can do anything. We can be in a closet and we'll have fun.
Maggie: I mean, we always remember like, I have to go to the store and just get groceries anyways, like, tag along with me and we'll just shop and chitchat, it's like I still have these chores to do, but like, do 'em with me and then they're more fun.
Jacqueline: exactly. So yes. More of that.
Dr. Barb: Maggie, you always say, and Maggie's a really good cook, that she could probably cook a meal better than what she gets in a restaurant anyway. So getting everyone in the kitchen and kind of having a role to come together and put a good meal together is always a lot of fun. And then just, I don't know, playing a game after dinner.
I know we do that a lot when we get together.
Jacqueline: Yeah. And it's less expensive. So that, when we think of the cost of friendship, what I want people to [00:27:00] realize is that the cost of, if you're overspending in this area, is the yes today impacts. Tomorrow. So your ability, Maggie, to say yes to my friends and we're gonna make dinner and I'm gonna save a hundred dollars means that you get to save or in invest that today, which when we think of compound interest and all of that, what does that mean for your future?
So that's what we're saying when we say the cost of friendship is we don't want you to put your future at risk for things today that we can navigate easily. We can navigate a lot of these experiences by doing just what you said. Of I'm gonna, you're a great cook, so let me cook or you can invite me over for cookies too.
'cause you just said that earlier. So like, but finding those moments of the things that, even finding the things that you love for your friends and really leaning into that so that it's more meaningful.
Maggie: I mean, I know we touched on this a little bit, but I wanna dive into it a little bit more as I do think a lot more people struggle from [00:28:00] FOMO than we talk about. Especially if you're not out with friends, you might just be sitting on the couch scrolling social media and have that fomo. how much does that play into people, do you think?
Overspending and keeping up with friends?
Jacqueline: Yeah, I definitely think when we talked about social media, it's the looking at your friends online and that weighs heavily on a friendship because with that fear of missing out, now you're also afraid that the dynamics of the friendship may change. And what I love to say with this fear of missing out, how we navigate that is just being honest.
Being honest with your friend of hey friend, for your wedding I can't do the wedding, but I can do your shower. Hey, friend, I can't do the dinner. I'm really working to save. I can't do the dinner this weekend, but I can next week. Let's plan something. So with the fear of missing out you're, you're afraid of missing out on the experience.
But if you can be transparent and say where you are financially and create another [00:29:00] opportunity. With honesty and transparency, it really opens up the window within your friendship to where we're shifting from this fear of missing out to really this transparency within your friendship to where you can show up and be honest.
It could be, yeah, fear of missing out you go and now you're having a horrible time. You're there because you're thinking about the debt that you're creating, and your friends should know that. So I think it's also with this fear of missing out, we also have to realize that we are showing up inauthentically in our friendships.
We're not showing up and saying what we really can afford, because that is shameful. That's shameful to say you can't afford it. But if we're able to open up the conversation and get rid of any shame that we have, I bet more than likely just by being honest with our friends, you can get these alternative options to be with your friends and really avoid the fomo.
'cause the FOMO is really, I'm just afraid of not experiencing this with you.
Dr. Barb: Yeah and you said something like. I feel it's shameful to say I [00:30:00] can't afford it, and I wish that wasn't the case. I wish that people could be more proud to say, look, I need to be financially responsible right now with my budget, and as much as I love you and I'd love to celebrate, here's what I can do.
Right.
Jacqueline: Yes. and you know what? I wonder if we can start a revolution of people doing that with this podcast of just being honest on what you can afford. How much freedom it will create specifically for women it's not only my money, but it's my wellbeing and my time.
Right? I'm being honest with time. I'm at capacity. I can't do it. I'm at capacity with money. I can't do it. Instead of showing up and doing things that we really don't want to do, can we have this conversation of like. How can I show up for you in the best way that still honors me? If I can show up for you in the best way, that still honors me.
It's not about shame. Now we're coming from a place of true authenticity of I'm showing up as Jacqueline, so when we hang out, I'm gonna be 1000% present. I'm gonna [00:31:00] be 1000% excited to be with you because it's something that I really decided for me within my own beliefs. Again, we're getting back to those beliefs and values.
I've decided from my own personal lens of how I wanna show up in this friendship. So I think that we should empower women to not have that shame and to have those conversations to say, this is how I can show up for you financially, with my time, with my energy so that it makes the best of the experience for everybody.
Maggie: I also. Love how you kind of mentioned like, I can't for this, but let's put a date on the calendar for something else. So you have something to look forward to. It's not a No, always, or, whatever. It's a friendship, it goes on. But you know, having that next kind of date on the calendar, so there is something to look forward to.
So it is there and it's not just kind of getting brushed aside. And I think it really shows that intention of like, I do wanna do something though. Which I don't know. I always like having that next kind of. Marking on the calendar so [00:32:00] you have that thing to look forward to.
Jacqueline: Yeah, and I know for my friend group, when we started doing that for each other, it was very freeing. To say, so now I, 'cause I think sometimes specifically with women, I think we have some level of obligation of like, well, she went to my birthday party, now I
have to go to her birthday party. And she went to my wedding and it's like it never ends.
Whereas with my friends now we are honest with each other. Like, Hey, I just, I can't show up for this right now. But I can, in two weeks my schedule will be clearer. My savings will be better. But giving that option, I think it's giving the option, but also being honest about where you are is where the vulnerability and the transparency can come in with your friendship.
And for me and my friends, it has honestly deepened our relationship because we're all showing up and being honest about who we are and not pretending which is another cost of friendship. Like we don't want to show up inauthentically and not be ourselves because that is draining as well.
Dr. Barb: Right, because it's the stress of the money is one thing. It's the [00:33:00] stress of having to feel obligated to show up. It's the mental load of having to balance that with everything else. And I think true friends would understand where if you say, I just can't do it. I just have so much going on right now.
People who know you will say I mean, that's happened to me just recently where I was supposed to go somewhere last minute, which is not like me at all. I said, you know what I just can't do it. And they said, are you okay? And I said, yeah, but I just feel wiped. Like I hit a wall and they're like, I get it.
Just, don't come, just relax. And it was like a total understanding. Everybody got it. They're like, yeah, been there.
Jacqueline: I think my first time doing that with my friends, it was like a weight was lifted. Like I don't have to say yes to.
Dr. Barb: I know.
Maggie: Sometimes the other friend's excited. It's like they said, no, we don't have to go now. Like everyone's, not to sound antisocial, but sometimes everybody's kind of happy to call the plans off.
Jacqueline: Yep. So we just need one person to shift the belief and shift the conversation to do something different. And now we got a whole new way of thinking.
Dr. Barb: [00:34:00] Yeah. We gotta be brave and have that courage to step forward and just say how we are actually authentically feeling about the situation.
Maggie: So how can people get creative with like low cost or no cost, ways to stay social?
Jacqueline: Yeah. So I mentioned earlier the Vision Party. I'm a really big fan of let's go work out together because you mentioned earlier, all we wanna do is talk. Let's just go on the track and talk. We can walk laps and talk. Some other things.
Museums have free days. I just did this with my daughter. Our library had free knitting classes. See what's available at your local library or museum. And those classes are free and is a great time to spend with your friends. Another thing is consider having a swap party. So it could be.
Clothing that you have that you wanna get rid of. You can have a swap party with girlfriends. Not only are you getting rid of stuff, but you get to pick up some new items. It's also great for sustainability. You could do that with books, recipes,
The money that we save today or invest [00:35:00] today creates financial freedom and dependence for the future. And if we can pull back on, unless the dinner is the thing and we plan for it. I don't wanna make people feel like they never can go to dinner. But what I am saying is, let's make it intentional.
What we tend to have is lifestyle creep. And I found this even within my friendships of, we went to dinner for special occasions. It was the promotion, it was the birthday. Now we are going to dinner because it's Tuesday. And then when you,
and when you realize the lifestyle creep that can come up in your friendships it's time to pull back and get to some of these other low costs.
I don't even wanna say low cost, just different. Let's just be creative. Creative opportunities for us to spend time together. Because I think a lot of times with the higher cost, vacations and food, it's really just [00:36:00] mindless. It's what everybody else is doing. We haven't given the time to be creative and say, Hey, my best friend loves dogs.
Let's go volunteer at the dog shelter. Like that takes a little bit more effort than those other things. So. One suggestion I have to get to the low cost question or a different idea is asking your friends, what is your money values and how can I support it for you? And when you learn or ask that question, what are your money values?
Now we're getting to, oh, my friend is really big on experiences with family. Or volunteering with this shelter, we can get to know each other a little bit more, and it also opens up the conversation for when you do have to say no. You understand why? Like, Hey Fnda, remember I told you I'm really trying to spend money to save for me it's generational wealth for my kids and I gotta pay for college.
Remember I told you that I'm saving for college. I gotta say no to this, but I can go to the track. And so now again, that gets us to a [00:37:00] better place of understanding and also helps us to be more thoughtful in those alternative options for experiences with our friends.
Dr. Barb: And I think it shows how you're modeling responsible behavior and behavior change in that makes people think, wow, I should be doing that too,
Jacqueline: yeah, and you know what else is that is really good. They see how happy I am because I'm leaning into. I'm gonna spend on the things that really bring me joy and align with my values. And I'm unapologetic with that, specifically with the work that I do now. If it doesn't align in that way, I'm gonna say no.
And by being so firm in my no, it has allowed me to be so joyful in my yes. And I think now people see for me, my relationship with money. It's not about the stuff and all of that. But it's really deeply aligned with my values. So I'm happier and I hope that as people start to take this approach with their money [00:38:00] and in their friendships, you'll see that happiness in your friend, and hopefully it'll start to rub off on everybody.
Maggie: You see that sometimes where it's like, if it's not a hell yes, then it's a no. and you've really gotta be like, ah, I guess I'll go. No, then you're not going. If it's not like, oh hell yeah, let's do that, then you gotta count yourself out.
Jacqueline: Yeah. Hell yes. With your friends
is amazing. Hell yes. With your best girlfriends is the best time of your life. So I think, as we think about. The beauty of friendships, like life is meant to be shared. And when you think of the beauty of your friendships and how we can be more thoughtful and present with those friendships that hell yes, that we mentioned earlier, becomes so important and really impacts your overall wellbeing so that yes to.
That really mindful, thoughtful experience with your friend now checks so many boxes. When we think of the return on [00:39:00] joy for your life, just from you making that decision to be intentional and say, I'm only giving Hell yes. My friend group. We're only gonna do a hell yes. And if it's not that as a group, then we're saying no.
That gets me excited
Maggie: When you
know everyone's at hell, Yes, it's an
energy.
Jacqueline: it's, and that's what life is about, right? It's about having that energy. And again, I'm a big fan of using money as a tool to create joy. So when we all are old ladies in our rocking chairs at 105 years old, we can look back and think about the experiences and.
The values that we were able to support through our friendship. So that's what I'm looking forward and that's why I'm so thoughtful about the findings that we had in the survey and really sharing all of this because we want everyone to know that yes, that stresses out there to spend the fear of missing out.
However, there is an alternative approach, which can be even more impactful.
Maggie: [00:40:00] There was something I saw on my feet of like some party somebody had that was like. Something around like finish that project party. And so everyone either brings like the half finished project that they're working on just so they could all work on it together, like crocheting or painting. But there are also some people who like, I just need to renew my passport, so I'm gonna do that at enter party.
And just have like almost body doubling. And I was like, I love that we can all feel a little productive and see what each
other's working on. But like, it's just the feed you need to get yourself in on your timeline, and back away from some of the other ones and get into these unique ones where you're like, that's a great idea.
Let's do a garden swap party where you grew cucumbers and I grew tomatoes and we'll swap 'em up. Like whatever it is, just make it fun. Like you said, we get a little lazy about it, so, think about something new and different, which is, which can be a lot of fun.
Jacqueline: Yeah, you've got me excited now. I do, I had struggle. So one of my behavioral finance issues, money issues is avoidance with financial documents. So specifically [00:41:00] mail. I despise mail. So something that I've done in the same vein of what you said is I'll have my girlfriends come over and we have a male opening party.
And it's funny because I call them once a quarter, like it is time for a male opening party
Dr. Barb: Those are good girlfriends.
Jacqueline: they are. But it, you know how we got to that place. It was me being honest,
that was me being honest and saying something I really struggle with is financial avoidance with administrative tasks.
I had to
be honest with my friends
Maggie: I would be that friend dying to come over and help you with that admin task. I'd be like, I wanna do it. Let's do it. I'm ready to go. Like, when do you wanna have this party? So like, you never know what somebody else's strengths are either.
Jacqueline: And that's how my friends are my, I have one friend who like, she loves it and she's like, are you ready? Okay, we're gonna shred these things and we're gonna keep this. And we got a filing system. And I'm like, where would I be without you? But that's the beauty of [00:42:00] friendships because we're able to get through one of my money issues and beliefs, work on that while at the same time experiencing each other.
So, it's a win-win.
Maggie: I love our quirky friends and what we do for each other. I was just thinking, Barb, about how your friend asked you like, should I keep my toaster, should I get rid of it?
Or her blender.
Dr. Barb: She was moving and she keeps too many things and I don't, so she texted me, I go, what's wrong? Everything okay? She goes, yeah, do I keep the blender? I haven't used it in two years. I'm like, donate. She's like, Okay. I'll put it in the
donate pile.
Jacqueline: like get rid of it. So Barb, when your friends move, they're calling you we're gonna get rid of some things. So that's great. And it's almost like, I love this idea of almost like money personalities within your friendship group of understanding who is that person that's gonna help you to purge?
Who is that person that's gonna help you to splurge a little bit? Who is that person that's gonna come up with the creative things for us to do? And really identifying [00:43:00] that within your friendship so that you're able to pull upon each other. And again, I think that gets back to that question I had earlier of.
What are your financial values? What are your financial values and how can I support you? And as we start to have more of those conver, how can I support you and how are you failing at it? Right? I think that's the other part of it is being honest. 'cause for me it would say, I'm failing at the mail, but I'm really good at helping you create a budget.
So I think it's like having those honest conversations. Clearly have had Barb with your friend and now she knows to call you.
And we gotta get outta this place of the shame of feeling like, I can't admit that I can't do the dinner, or I don't want to do the dinner, all of these things and just get to a place of honesty.
Maggie: So if you could give our listeners one game changing friendship and finance tip that would make an immediate difference, what would it be?
Jacqueline: I, I've said it already, talk to your friends. So I think that question of what are your [00:44:00] values? And we can take it a step further if you wanna get to know, like what are your beliefs asking your friend, what are their beliefs around money? I think that's a game changer. And my second thing would be really being thoughtful about the calendar that you create with your friends.
Of let's plan for things that support your values, things that support my values so that we stay on track and just communicating it. So again, I think it's a little bit more effort in how we spend time with our friends, and then the effort of the actual execution. But I guarantee. When that work is done on the front end, the return on joy that we get from our friendships and the money that we spend on our friendships will increase exponentially. So just putting in that work to get to know each other a little bit better, being transparent, and then working as a team to execute.
Dr. Barb: So there's one question that we ask everyone at the end of our, podcast and it's how would you define being [00:45:00] financially fearless?
Jacqueline: Ooh, I love that. For me, financially fearless is not only the ability to learn, so I'm a lifelong learner and knowing that I may make mistakes. I don't know everything. So I think a piece of it for me is the learning aspect of money. I work in this industry and I'm constantly looking for, I'm on podcasts, reading books, all of that.
So I think learning and education is a piece of financial fearlessness. And then also I think having your emergency savings is financial fearlessness. And I say that because for so many women, by not having our emergency savings. We get stuck in things we don't wanna do. You lose your ability to have choices when you don't have that emergency savings or your investments for retirement.
And why is that so important to me? It gives you the idea, the ability to [00:46:00] walk away from relationships. You could walk away from the job you don't want. You can go on that dream vacation, you can put your kid in the sport you wanted them to. So I want more people to feel. Financially fearless to live the life you want and when you're able to live the life that you want and use money as a tool. It is such a return on joy. I get back to that again. So for me, being financially fearless, it's education and it's me having enough money in my retirement and my savings to where I can make decisions, and that makes me feel empowered and that makes me feel happy. So, for example, the fact that I know I'm financially fearless is why I have this job now because I took certain risks to get to this role.
It took me raising my hand and jumping around within my career. To try new things, knowing that I would be okay if it didn't work out, and if I didn't have that freedom [00:47:00] financially, I would be afraid to change. So for me it just fearlessness opens up so many opportunities for you to live authentically.
Maggie: I love it. That's great. And yeah, it gives you all those opportunities to just do whatever you want. Whether that is taking that trip or getting outta that relationship, whatever it is, you have that freedom now. So thank you for coming on and sharing your expertise today. This
was such a fun topic.
What is the best way for people to kind of stay in touch with you?
Jacqueline: Yeah, so I'm on Instagram. It is Jack Howard Gems, so JACK, Howard, H-O-W-A-R-D, gems, GEMS. And if you go there, I do a lot of. Content for Ally. I have some of my own personal stuff. So you'll get a nice mix of fashion and also money tips and I read a lot of books.
So you'll find all of my book suggestions 'cause I'm obsessed with Audible and also hard copy books. So that's [00:48:00] my thing. Follow me on Instagram and you can keep up with all of my fun with money Wellness.
Maggie: Awesome. Thank you so much and we'll talk to all of our listeners again soon. So until then, be financially fearless.
Outro: You've been listening to Women Money, the shit we don't talk about. Now it's time to take what you've learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
