The Childfree Financial Advantage More Women Are Choosing with Kristen Myers and Erika Abdelatif

Whether you have kids, don’t have kids, or are still figuring it out, the life you choose deserves a real financial plan behind it.

This week we are sitting down with Erika and Kristen, the best-friend duo behind the DINKY Podcast. DINK stands for Dual Income, No Kids. These two have built a thriving community around what it actually looks like to choose this life on purpose. Erika comes from a background in social media and comedy and now runs her own freelance business while co-hosting the podcast full time. Kristen spent years in tech before making the bold move to relocate to Dublin, Ireland, where she is in business school part time, building a side business, and working on an invention she is genuinely excited about. The DINKY Podcast launched about four years ago, right as Roe v. Wade was overturned, and it has grown into a bold, funny, and politically engaged conversation about reproductive rights, financial freedom, chosen family, and the real cost of the life society tells us we should want.

Erika and Kristen bring live poll data from thousands of women, real talk about what financial freedom actually feels like when you are building it on your own terms, and some of the most refreshingly honest takes on money, marriage, and end-of-life planning we have ever had on this show. From the $6,000 a month Seattle daycare reality check that started it all to why 77% of women said they still would not want kids even with more money, this one is packed. We also get into retiring as you go, bodily autonomy in a post-Roe world, chosen family, and why having a written end-of-life plan is not optional regardless of whether you have children.

Erika and Kristen's reminder is this: the women who came before us did not get to choose. We do, and that is worth respecting with intentional decision making. Join us for next week's Money Talks “You Don’t Have to Have Kids to Build a Legacy”. Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions!  

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Transcript

Dr. Barb: [00:00:00] Mags, do you wanna have children someday?

Maggie: I don't know. I don't know. if I know they're gonna be like if they're guaranteed, but they're not, some days I really fathom what if I have a kid who's medically complex, and I'm locked down for the next 50 years taking care of them? That would be a real skew in the plan.

And I know people like to tell you that God gives his hardest things to his bravest soldiers or whatever that is. But,

Dr. Barb: Or you could have a very happy, healthy little girl like I did.

Maggie: I know, you could have a superstar. It's hard because, I'll think about it and I'm like, wow, like some of... my business partner is my mom. I live with my brother. I love being an aunt, I call my dad every Monday. My family is really close. We're a very tight-knit family, and so I'm like, wow, I couldn't imagine not continuing that.

But also some days I'm like that might not be, that might not be continued. 

Dr. Barb: It's not for [00:01:00] the lame of heart.

Maggie: I know. I need my eight hours. Anybody in my life knows I need my eight hours at night.

That's how I don't know how you got through it. You need 

your eight hours. You're not nice without your eight hours, and 

neither am 

Dr. Barb: it 

Maggie: So I always hope that whatever partner I had with that child would be better at not getting their eight hours.

Dr. Barb: can. It can function A little sleep.

Maggie: Yeah. But I would need a partner for that, it takes two to tango.

I'm not gonna be one of those who's just adopting or having them by myself. Oof.

Dr. Barb: That's double trouble. Yeah. That's really 

hard. God bless them. Yeah. 

It's a big decision these days and I think women have more options than they ever had in the past. So you can make those choices on your own where at one point you really didn't. 

Maggie: Which has also been great most places now you can also have that preventative care to not have 'em. There's great, usually great access to birth control and things [00:02:00] like that are pretty good. So if... And if now's a better time, you can choose that time which has been great.

That's how I made it this far. But yeah it's a big decision.

Dr. Barb: It is and I'm so glad we the Dinky podcast, Dual Income No Children Podcast.

So we had Kristen and Erica and they're fantastic. Really well thought out, really deep perspectives on their choices and yeah they're super introspective and I get it.

And not only that, they're fun and funny, 

Maggie: your 

headphones are 

falling out of your head. I think it's time for us just to get started.

Dr. Barb: Let's do it.

Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse [00:03:00] strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don't talk about.

Maggie: We're so excited to have another duo on today. And this is a topic I don't think we've covered before, and you guys are the host of the DINKY Podcast. So for our listeners, if you don't know the acronym DINK, it's Dual Income, No Kids. And so before we dive into all of our questions today, can you both kind of introduce yourself, 

share what you do, and about your podcast, like how this conversation really got started?

Erika: Hi I'm Erika. So I work in social media. We both quit our jobs for different reasons last year.

I still do social media freelance work and then, you know, just grinding out this, this podcast.

Kristen: And I'm Kristen and I normally work in tech. [00:04:00] Like Erika mentioned, we both quit our jobs about nine months ago. My primary purpose was because I moved to Europe, so, that was. Really fortunate that I had the means and financial means to allow me to pursue my dreams. But yeah, also on the side we are pursuing dinky kind of full-time.

And then also I'm going to business school part-time. I have another side business that I'm working on, an invention that I'm working on, that I'm excited about. So yeah, we both have been diving into things that we enjoy in our non full-time job life.

Maggie: And so where are you guys both calling in from today?

Kristen: So I'm in Dublin, Ireland. 

Erika: So I'm in Dublin, Ireland. And I'm 

Maggie: Okay. And you guys can still record then virtually. It's amazing how the virtual world works.

Erika: I know. It's  such a such a gift. So I think 

Maggie: And so how did this podcast get started? 

Kristen: Yeah, about three and a half years ago, we started dinky and the first episode coincided with Roe v. Wade being overturned. So we felt like there was a really. Good time to [00:05:00] have a conversation amongst women. And it really started because I was on the fence about having kids, becoming a parent.

And Erika at that point had become fully child free in her decision. And so she was kinda like a safe space for me. We were, we've been best friends since college, so it was a safe space for me to talk. With her and bounce ideas back and forth. And honestly, one of the reasons I started looking into it and deciding really whether having kids was right for me was, was money related.

I started looking at the finances for how much it cost to have a kid. I was living in Seattle Daycare is very expensive in Seattle for two kids. At the time I was living there, I saw somebody post on the internet that it costs nearly $6,000 a month just for two kids in daycare. So that was kind of what prompted that conversation.

Erika and I were having lots of conversations back and forth about should I have a kid or not, and here's all the things I've been thinking about and considering, and we were like, you know what? We're having these conversations. There's gotta be other girls out there that are also navigating this huge life decision.

And when we looked at what else was [00:06:00] out there in the market, there wasn't really a space where people were embrace this conversation in a fun and lighthearted way. So Eric and I both have backgrounds in comedy and entertainment, so we were like, let's just like have this conversation, make it fun, and navigate together whether I should have kids.

And spoiler alert, I decided to not have kids at the end of my research. And now, yeah, it's been going on. Oh, going on almost four years now, where we just have, we have so much to talk about. When it comes to the child-free lifestyle and, but also reproductive rights. We're very outspoken about politics right now.

So yeah, we kind of branch out into more than just discussing whether or not to have kids. 

Maggie: It's the time to be outspoken.

Kristen: we agree.

Maggie: And so let's just go back a little bit. Like, what did you both kind of, grow up believing about family and kind of like this plan that we should follow? You know, what was, what was kind of instilled in your family? 

Erika: Yeah, that's such a fun question [00:07:00] 'cause Kristen and I actually both really grew up thinking that we would have kids. Which is funny because my mom always said that she didn't want to have kids and that having kids was like the best thing that ever happened to her. And I have a very close relationship with my mom.

And so in a lot of ways I like looked at her and was like She's such a good mom. She's always here for us. Like, I wanna mimic that. I wanna, you know, duplicate that. And then as I started getting into my 20s was when I started thinking like, "Wait, do I wanna do this? Do I have to do this? Would I be good at this?"

 But yeah, it was-- Like, family was very instilled for us. You know, we spent a lot of time with our grandparents and our cousins on my mom's side. But that's my story. I'll let Kristen tell hers.

Kristen: Yeah. And for me, I also am very close with my parents still. I still enjoy, we're going on vacation together to Spain in August. So yeah, we still enjoy spending time together From a very young age, my mom also, and kind of in a different way, but also was very [00:08:00] much like we would have these conversations and she was very much of the mindset that she didn't need grandkids.

So she was like, I don't, that's not something I want. That's not something I need. Like it's totally up to you. It's your life, your. Your decision. And that was when I was a kid. I remember hearing that and I've always wanted kids, so I was like, well, okay mom, that's cool, but like, I'm gonna have kids 'cause I really want kids.

I thought I would adopt, quite frankly, I have always had it in me that I thought that was gonna be my path to motherhood was through adoption. I just didn't feel strongly about having my own, you know, biological family. And, and then yeah still close with my parents, but also had to break the news that as their only child now that I was not.

Bringing the family name any further.

Dr. Barb: Oh, so you're an only child. That makes a difference, I think.

Kristen: Yeah, it's tricky and it's confusing too 'cause I did grow up with a brother and honestly that's part of the reason that contributed. Again, there's so many reasons for why I ended up not having kids. But I did grow up with a brother. My brother passed away when I was 29 and he was 31 and he didn't, you know, before he got married [00:09:00] or anything like that. Yeah, it made it extra tricky to navigate with my parents to be like, Hey, sorry, I know you're counting on me, but nope, it's not

Maggie: Remember that conversation we had when I was really young and you said you didn't want grandchildren? Yeah. 

Erika: Yeah, 

was your mom saying that to you before your brother passed?

Kristen: Oh my God. For like, literally as long as I can remember, my mom would say that. Yeah. So that, I never felt pressure ever from my

parents. 

Maggie: Which is interesting 'cause a lot of people do, and it, it's-- I hear... I mean, Mom, you've never really said that, like, "I'm waiting for grandchildren," but 

there are some parents who are like, "All right, where are my grandbabies?" You know? And you're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." Like, "I don't have a 

partner, okay?

 I can't do 

this alone." 

Dr. Barb: Are you an only child? 

Erika: No, I have an older brother, and actually Funny enough, I mean, I'm hesitant to say this because my mom is my personal stalker, and she will find this podcast and listen to it. But she [00:10:00] your mind when you meet the right person." And ironically enough, I was like, "No, Mom, I'm dating to find someone who also does not want children."

 she now has two grandchildren from my brother. And she now is always like, "I'm glad you don't have kids because every time I'm with my grandchildren, I love them, I wanna spend more time with them, but it's so tiring. And if I had more grandchildren, I think I'd be exhausted." So she's always like, "Good job." 

Dr. Barb: She has her fill. Yeah. Cool. So, you know, when you're out and about, people always say, so tell me, you know, do you have children? Don't you get that a lot?

Erika: Oh, yeah, all the time. 

Kristen, do you get it a 

lot? 

Kristen: I think it's natural, especially like in corporate. Life when you meet people or like start of a meeting when it's like quiet and it's just like you and one other person, they start talking about their kids. It's like, oh, do you have kids? Like, that's a natural segue. I've heard a lot. I used to be very reticent [00:11:00] to say I didn't have kids and didn't want kids.

So I've been training that muscle because it's obviously so commonplace now that. It's so socially acceptable to say, yes, I have kids and I love my kids and I'm proud of my kids, but it's not socially acceptable to be like, no, I've, I'm, I don't want kids. I'm good. You know, it's not like a conversation that's typically out there.

So I've started flexing that a little bit more and. It makes some people very uncomfortable, and I do it in a very nice way, like a very respectful way where I'm just like, oh, like, no, we've decided not to have kids, or, my dog is enough, or, you know, I'm a dog mom. Some, some kind of like navigation around that.

But I, I try not to make it ambiguous now, I try to like hint, or at least explicitly say that like, we chose not to have kids and it, yeah, it, the conversation has gone many different ways from there.

Maggie: It is funny when you still have those strangers be like, "Oh, but maybe one day you'll change your mind." And you're like, 

Erika: Yeah. Now at least we 

have the 

podcast, so can, we can be like, " it would be really weird if I had kids now. [00:12:00] People would be pretty upset with me." But 

before the podcast, it was a lot more awkward.

Maggie: So when did childsfree go from a question to a clear decision? I know, Erika, you seemed more set on it, where Kristen, you were still kind of, you know, wishy-washy. Was there like a moment or conversation? Was it just the money or like a slow realization over time? 

Kristen: well for me you know, I was about 33, 34 I wanna say, and it was at the end of season, one of our first dinky season, where literally all I did for that whole season was research like various facets related to whether or not to have a kid, you know, for example, do kids make you happier?

Like how much do they cost? Like I just went down, like these, this list of, of things that I had in my brain bouncing around and I went through actual research and data around it. And then at the end of that I was like, Nope, I'm good. It's not for me. And I

I guess that like that was what I wanted. And also I knew it was for me when I told myself I wasn't gonna have kids. When I like sat with that and I was like, you know what? I'm making the [00:13:00] choice based on all of this data. I am now not going to have kids. And all I felt was relief. And it was just like that feeling in my body of just feeling like to the weight off my shoulders was like up.

No, I think this was, I think this is right. Like my body is telling me this, my mind is telling me this, and now we're like in sync, so yeah.

Maggie: And was your partner pretty much on board with you?

Kristen: That's a great question because Eric and I have talked a lot about the navigating the partner thing. My husband, our first date, I told him I wanted to adopt, so I was very clear, like that was my path for, you know, having children. And a lot of people I had dated before him had said like, no, I want kids.

That's important to me. And like, I want my own kids. And so that would end things right there. But my husband was like, yeah, sure. Okay, cool. And he is, and he's been like that kind of ever since. So when I started having that question of like, I don't know, like we started looking, literally started looking at the money.

I was like, you and I can't afford this. Like, what would we do? Like I, would we move in with your parents? Like when we started like really playing out scenarios of like, how would we do this? He [00:14:00] was like, uhoh. So I think we both kind of came to this, the decision over time together that like this, it's easier said than done.

And I was so tired of people being like, oh, you just figure it out because how. How am I gonna figure out, are you gonna be living with me in my house for 18 years, taking care of me, figuring it out, like helping my kids? No. So yeah, that's how we decided together.

Maggie: It's so great to have that pre-planning. Not enough people do it, and so then it's like they have the kid and they're like, "I can't seem to figure this out." And you're like, 

"Mm, you're gonna figure it out."

Erika: Yeah, we know a lot of those people 

Dr. Barb: yeah, if they did that much investigation, they wouldn't, probably wouldn't. 

You know, I don't think people think that much in advance about it.

Maggie: What was your kind of story on that, Erika? I mean, you seemed pretty... hard no from the get-go. 

Erika: So transparently I had, Kristen and I love talking about this, I had a, a weird religious phase in my, like, 20s, really my whole 20s. And, It was funny because I [00:15:00] worked with kids in that period. I worked as a family minister, families pastor. And so I was with kids a lot, and I, I do really like kids when I have the energy for them.

 And you know, being in that job, I saw upfront and personal really the toll that having kids takes on women especially with women who, you know, are primarily stay-at-home moms. You know, I got a lot of behind-the-scenes information from women about how tiring it is, how thankless it is, how much the power dynamics between men and women really come to the surface when you have children.

 And the more I worked with kids, the more I was like, "You know, I think I love kids, and I could just do this for the rest of my life." I kind of felt like if I were to have kids, I would have to choose between doing kids well or doing a career well, and I felt like I couldn't really, for [00:16:00] me, I couldn't do both of them successfully. I have since come to find out that I have ADHD, raging ADHD and that gave a lot of clarity as to why I felt that way. But yeah, as I started, similar to what Kristen said, as I started sitting with, you know, the idea of like, what if I didn't have children of my own? What if I just focus on my career?

I really felt a lot of peace in that. And so I started moving in that direction. It was very unpopular within the church to have that, POV. And I have since left the church. But yeah, the, the longer I have gone, the more I've been like, "Wow, now I don't even really wanna focus on my career or have children.

I just wanna have a nice life."

Dr. Barb: Just wanna have fun.

Erika: I know. I just wanna enjoy myself. Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't I just be a human? 

Dr. Barb: you know, when you think about it, you know, women were taught. That's the natural progression. Okay. I'm glad you're sitting down because I'm one of 13 children,

Kristen: [00:17:00] 13. Wow. That's a record

Erika: my dad is one of 10, so you have him beat.

Maggie: You know a big family, though. You've 

got the cousins. 

Erika: Is your family Catholic or Mormon,

Dr. Barb: Oh yeah. Irish Catholic. Irish Catholic.

Yeah. And you know, when I was earning my doctorate, I actually interviewed, it was around how women learn how to manage and take care of children. So I interviewed eight women who had eight or more children, like during that baby boom era.

And it was very fascinating because these women really had no training, right? Didn't have a lot and. Very minimal resources and you know, they didn't have a lot of financial backing behind them. They were just hardworking people, but they were consumed for years and years and years of being pregnant and having children, being pregnant, having children.

It was the, the times, right? It was after the wars, the baby boom era. Lots of big families. Irish Catholic. My mother was Irish [00:18:00] Catholic and you know, she had, you know, 13 children in 20 years, 

all one family. It's a lot, right? I know, but you know, I never was told by them, you need to get married and have children.

I never got that message. I got the messages you need to make sure you can take care of yourself. So I never thought about having children at all. I would never. Wanted to, I never thought about it. I never felt like, oh, I have to quit, get married and have children. It just happened that, I mean, I was, until my mid thirties that I got pregnant with my son, I was like, oh my God.

And I was in earning my PhD at the time 

and I was like, oh my God, I'm pregnant.

Erika: Where were you within the 13? 

Dr. Barb: 11. 

Erika: Oh,

wow. Okay. Toward the end. Yeah.

okay. So you, you weren't necessarily parentified.

Dr. Barb: No, my older siblings were my or my parents still today. They act like it.

But you know, it's just funny [00:19:00] the sign of the times and, and now as we on our podcast, talk to women who are, you know, talk about praising your eggs, we talk about fertility insurance that's out there, all these other things because you know, women are either choosing not to have or wait or finish their career, get deeper into their career.

So how can they manage that and have children? It's a lot to think about. It wasn't just like, oh, you just have babies because now that means something totally different. 

Maggie: I mean, you guys would just pile on top of each other and be in one car. Like, now it's like you have to have the car seat, and you have to have like, you know, 

all this stuff, all this regulation, which I'm not poo-pooing that. Like, you should 

wear your seatbelt. But you know, it's a lot more

involved. 

Erika: Yeah.

how did you guys get around? Now I'm thinking about this logistically.

Dr. Barb: You have your hand on your head like, oh my God.

Erika: It's so stressful to think about having 13 children today.

Dr. Barb: Well, station wagons, and you sat on each other's lap for the most 

part. But this one family [00:20:00] I interviewed, they had a bus. They got an old

school bus and that's how they took their family around and they had three sets of twins. 

That's crazy. 

Kristen: sets of twins. Whoa.

Dr. Barb: Yeah, so I mean, that's a whole different lifestyle from what the both of you have chosen and, and I think it's really a sign of the times.

It's like you can choose to do that, 

right? 

Maggie: It's that bodily autonomy. 

Kristen: yeah, I mean that women's rights add like a whole other layer of decision making, especially depending on what state you're in and if you feel safe getting pregnant in a state. Yeah, that adds a lot of complexity. But you know, the number one reason still for why a lot of women, you know, gen Z millennials are choosing not to have kids, is simply because they don't want them.

So it is pretty much like that's still like 60% I think of our audience. When we pulled them, it was like 5,000 respondents and they said. That they just never wanted kids. But a surprising percentage also said that they had wanted kids and then changed their mind. So in me and Erika's camp, so around like 40% of our [00:21:00] audience had said that.

So that was pretty interesting. And actually I pulled them today and I asked them like how, you know, if money was a factor in their decision to not have kids, and if they had money, would they change their minds? Would they want kids? And I just did a quick poll. We had 3000 respondents today, and for this one it was, yes, 73% said money factored into their decision to not have kids.

So that was pretty insightful. And then also, would you have kids if you had more money? 77% said no,

which is overwhelming. 20% said maybe they might change their mind. They might have kids if they had, if they had the means to do so. And only 3% said yes. So. 

Gives you an idea. 

Maggie: Which I think that's so interesting because I think a lot of people do think it's a money issue these days. I mean, things are expensive everywhere, but it's not the only thing, which is also kind of nice. 'Cause we don't want money to hold [00:22:00] people back from living their lives, right? And so, yes, I can see how money is a big factor, but overall, if you don't want them, you don't want them.

You know what I mean? 

And so it's nice that it's not like, oh, well, it's money holding people back from living the dream and starting a family and these different things. It's, you know, all these other, other reasons out there in the world.

Kristen: Right. I think it's a combination like that money's a factor that people consider, but it's not the determinant for why they don't have kids.

Erika: I think the difference though is that, like, wages have changed so much over the past, you know, couple decades.

Maggie: Or, like, not at all. 

Erika: y-yeah, for my parents' generation, like, they could still go on vacation with their kids. Like, I think for a lot of people now, if they're having children, that's their thing.

You know? A lot of people can't afford to have kids and go on vacation, or have a house, or have, hobbies. I think that, like, money has changed so significantly over the past couple years that, like, it really is much more of a determination for people to, to make a choice because it impacts so many other facets of [00:23:00] your life in a way that, like, our parents' generation and our grandparents' generation didn't really have to think about it in that way.

Maggie: You see those videos where people paid, like, $36,000 for a house and,

you know, three grand for a car? I mean, you could pay 90K for a car now, and 

a lot of people, their salaries are not increasing with the price of living and the price of everything else. And so it's, we're feeling the pinch.

Dr. Barb: Yeah, and it's, you know, the way that you up, you know, children were brought up was to be seen and not heard, you know, and it's kind of like you had a couple toys. It wasn't like you had a big toy room, family room, every electronic under the sun, you know, smart watches and a thousand dollars computer in your hand.

You know, nobody had anything like that. So everything has gotten very, very, very expensive. The other thing is, you know, when you look at homes from the fifties, they didn't have big family rooms. You know, they had like a formal living room. Who uses those anymore? Right? The way that we lived our lives were so different.

It was like you went in the [00:24:00] living room when, when company came over and you actually answered the front door and wanted to answer the front door. Now it's like nobody comes to your front door, and if they did, there must be a problem. Don't 

Erika: yeah. But I mean, to that point, my, my niece and nephew, like, they are all involved in, like, dance and soccer, and all of those things cost so much money, and like, they make it work, but I'm like, " Wait, gymnastics is $500?" Like, plus you have to pay for a costume, plus you have to, like, drive them after work.

Like, the, the math just does not math for me, and I don't understand how people do it. But somehow, to Kristen's point, like, they do make it work, but, you know, they're sacrificing on other things, I suppose.

Dr. Barb: Oh, for sure they are. I mean, for sure they are. They have debt and they're not going on fancy vacations probably.

Maggie: And so how does being childs-free actually change the way you two think about money, spending, planning for the future, like retirement, things like that? I mean, it's gotta be a whole different perspective now that you've really decided, "I'm gonna be childfree."

Kristen: [00:25:00] Yeah, I love this conversation. This brings me joy. Yeah, so I think in particular it opens up retirement to be led in a different way. So for me, what I've been trying to embrace is this concept of retiring as I go. So right now it's like a gap year for me. This is the first time in my life pretty much since I was 16.

I've had a job back to back. I've gone, you know, even in school I had two part-time jobs. I've always grinded, you know. So this is the first time in my life where I was like, you know what? I wanna go to Europe. I wanna live my life. I'm young enough, I'm healthy now. Now's the time. Why are we waiting until we're, you know, in our late sixties to go see the world?

So that was a big motivating factor for why we moved to Europe, was just like, we're young, we have the financial means, let's do it. So that is a big avenue now for folks. Also, like this idea of just like part-time work in retirement is still really appealing to like. Our generation, they're like, I wanna work in fields that give me joy.

So like, I don't see myself [00:26:00] retiring. I always see some, you know, some income coming in because like, I enjoy working. But the biggest, and I actually poll the audience again today about this. I asked them about their retirement plans and most people who are retiring who responded about 2,600 respondents, said that they are.

Plan on retiring early. So 33% said they plan on retiring early. 25% said they plan to retire as they go, which is my approach. 25% said on time and 18% said never. So, yeah, so I think like, you know, it does give us flexibility, especially for retirement. And then in general, I would just say the way that it allows me to live my life is not necessarily like I'm rich or that I'm, you know, living lavishly by any means.

And really what it gives me is flexibility and options. And I couldn't ask for anything. I feel rich because I have options or because I can upgrade. You know, when we flew over here, I brought my dog. My dog is a rescue. She's super anxious. Couldn't fathom her in like the belly of a [00:27:00] cargo plane.

So we got a private jet for dogs where a bunch of people brought their dogs on a plane on bark air. So to me it's like, I had the financial means that if I pulled $10,000 out to take a one-way flight to Europe, like it wasn't going to put me into a situation where I couldn't eat. So, yeah, it gives me options.

Maggie: I wanna fly on Bark Air even without my dog just to 

pet every other dog on there. That'd make it so much more 

enjoyable. 

Kristen: It was great. I highly recommend it.

Erika: I know. Even if we're on, like, an economy flight and there's, like, a pet in the row ahead of me, I'm always like, "Can I touch your dog? 

Can I... 

If, If, you need a break, if you need to take a nap, like, I'm here. I'll be back here." 

 I mean, I think for me it's a lot of similar vibes to Kristen. You know, my husband is a park ranger and so, like, we're always like, "Will we be able to afford to retire?"

 It's a conversation that we're always having, but I also feel like just having the peace of mind that [00:28:00] I can live life on my own terms and not have to have the stress. You know, I quit my job last year to go freelance, and it was like, I don't think I could feel safe doing that if I had children. You know, 

if I really...

You know, I bought my husband a hot tub last year for his birthday, and it was like, let's just enjoy our lives. I just wanna have a comfortable, peaceful day-to-day, and I feel like choosing to not have children has really opened up that option for us of, like, we can do things because we chose this that we couldn't necessarily do otherwise.

Dr. Barb: So let me ask you this question. What about any type of emotion, you know, we talked about the finance, the numbers, the freedom. Where does the emotional piece come in? Is there a component of that that you think about or have a paying for or not at all?

Erika: For me, because I worked with kids for so long, I [00:29:00] don't have that. I really do think that, like, seeing it firsthand really made me devoid of any 

of 

Dr. Barb: That's fair. That's fair. Yeah.

Erika: I think, too, having gone through, you know, such a rigorous spiritual moment, I, I really view life so much now as, like, we're here for this brief time.

 You know, the experiences for me, I don't really think of legacy as much as, you know, who am I leaving behind, as much as I think of it as, like, what am I contributing to the world? Am I making a positive impact? Am I giving myself a good experience? Will I be on my deathbed, like, feeling like I lived a good life?

 And you know, of course, obviously, I hope that I have people by my side, but at the end of the day, like, I feel like I will have made meaningful connections with friends and loved ones. 

 And for me, that's, that's enough.

Kristen: And for me, I think it's natural to wonder like, what would my life be like? [00:30:00] And I think that's probably parents wonder too. What would my life have been like if I didn't have kids, what would I be doing? So I do think it's like natural to wonder, but. I never feel like I'm missing out. I never feel like sad about it. every time I start to like even think down that rabbit hole of like, oh, like maybe I should have kids, maybe, you know, maybe I should have or whatever. I always like spiral into like, yeah, but what if I have a kid who is awful?

Dr. Barb: Right. 

It's a crap shoot. 

Kristen: right? And it's like, yeah, if I had a great kid, if I knew I could have a great kid who was happy to be born, who was gonna outlive me and die, you know, peacefully with loved ones. You know, by their side and, everything is golden and great and they contribute well to the world and they're a good person.

If I knew all of that, maybe it'd be a different calculation. But you don't, and so it's like my life feels hard enough, and I say this to someone who quit my [00:31:00] full-time job and moved to Europe, and I still feel like. Life is hard. Okay? And so it's like, what if I get an extra layer of complexity I'm not a hundred percent in?

And I just think if you're not a hundred percent in Parenthood's, probably not right for you.

Erika: Yeah. I think, too, Kristen and I both have, like, very healthy perspectives on chosen family as well. And the recognition that, like, family can look like a lot of different things, and you can find maybe not a one-for-one comparison, but something similar. 

 When we lived in LA my husband was really close with our landlord and he really ended up becoming his caretaker at end of life.

And we were at his side when he passed. And so I think having seen that firsthand really gave us a different perspective of like, "Oh yeah, like we do have intergenerational relationships." 

And that provided like a different perspective for us about like what end of life care can look like.

You know, you can have people you [00:32:00] love around you even if you choose not to have biological children. I think it's just given us a, an updated view of what community and, and chosen family looks like.

Maggie: do think you're right about just being so much more intentional with that chosen family and, and not taking those relationships for granted. One of the questions that just popped up for me is like, do people ever ask you like, "Who's gonna take care of you when you're older?" 

You know? Because I'm not taking care of this lady.

No. But

it's so assumed that your kids will always take care of you, and it's this conversation most families don't have, at least like I feel like you know, a lot of white families. I know a lot of like, you know, other families live together and things like that. But yeah.

And then it's like, "Well, you would take care of me." And it's like, "Oh, well, 

Kristen: Yeah, I think like having experienced firsthand, you know, my brother passing away, like, you just don't know and nothing is guaranteed. And so I kind of, you know, live with this idea that like anybody, even if you have kids, it could not work out right where your kid is there to take care of you when you're older.

And it's also no [00:33:00] guarantee you're gonna get old. Like we, we don't know. And so, I do think that we are nav we're kind of like. I don't wanna take credit as the first generation navigating this, 'cause obviously women have chosen not to have kids for their whole lives, or, you know, have been childless for, you know, decades and decades.

But I do think that this is probably the childless and child free population continues to grow with each generation. So I think this is something that we're gonna have to navigate kind of together and lean on each other. And really, I think that the chosen family comes in and I also think having

Money helps. So I think like investing wisely, having a retirement fund. There's options now, you know, for long-term care plans that you can get that are insurance. So like, yeah, there, there's options. And we're gonna have to navigate it and we'll probably honestly be posting about it on social media when we're 90 years old from our hospital beds, 

Maggie: Love it. 

Kristen: like and subscribe. 

Erika: This is a big beef for me, to be honest, and we've talked [00:34:00] about this a lot on our podcast. and I think this is something that we're gonna continue talking about, but my, grandma passed away at the end of 2025, and she had three children. And, you know, I can say now from personal experience, like, I don't think it was, like, the joy of any of her children's lives to care for her at the end of their life.

Like, it was a huge, huge burden, especially because she did not have clear plans in place for what she wanted in her end-of-life care. And I think as childfree people, that need is so much more palpable to have those plans in place because there will be no one there to save you or care for you. And so I think it has risen to the top, like the importance of having those plans.

And I think for us, like, we've become [00:35:00] much more advocates for everyone to write those plans down. You know, like I'm always talking to my parents now, I'm talking to my in-laws all the time about like, "Please write these plans down because you cannot expect- other generations to take care of you in the way that you wanna be taken care of.

You have to have a plan whether you have children or not, because it's unfair to put that expectation on somebody else.

Maggie: Preach. 

Dr. Barb: Preach.

That's what we say here at Purse strings all the time.

Maggie: I mean, we always talk about having the estate plan, writing it down, and people are always like, "I'll get to it later," blah, blah, blah. And it does fall a lot on the kids, and there's not a plan and, you know, it was always hush-hush, so I actually don't know what you wanted even though you thought I just might through telepathy.

And it's also, you know, it's different having your parent be, now you have to wipe their butt, you know. Now the roles are really reversed and, you know, things like that. It can be very j-jarring.

Erika: Yeah, and do you really 

want your kid To do that? You know? [00:36:00] Like, I don't know.

Dr. Barb: Yeah. Oh, well, let me ask you this question. Today. You know, like they turned over Roe v. Wade and now they're doing all sorts of things so that women stay at home so that we go back to that. Right? Stay at home, have a lot of children. Right suppression, I think it is, is what I would say. So with everything that's happening in the world right now what are you seeing with your community when you know women are rethinking timelines and expectations and what life should look like and you know, kind of this push to have women have more children?

Erika: I think the biggest thing that we're seeing is more women are making choices to either have permanent birth control, be that an IUD or, you know, a hysterectomy, Bi-SALP and we really, really encourage people to do that if you know [00:37:00] you don't wanna have children.

 This is an imperative moment. You know, I c- could talk until I'm blue in the face about what we saw with Adriana Smith. She is a shining example of the moment that we're living in. If you're not familiar, she was a woman who was declared brain dead at nine weeks pregnant, and because of the unclear abortion laws, the hospital kept her body alive in order to harvest that fetus.

And fortunately, now the baby is still alive and healthy but the, the family is now saddled with- unfathomable amounts of medical 

bills as a result. And that's just so unacceptable in my eyes. And so again, it's like it comes down to personal responsibility because we live in hell. And so we're really encouraging women, like don't put birth control on the back seat.

You have to be responsible for that. If your husband is willing or your partner is willing to get a vasectomy, get [00:38:00] them in there because it's scary times. It's really scary. And, you know, even if you think you want kids, do you want kids right now? Are you ready to have kids right now? Because it, it may not be a choice for you if you live in a state where there's unclear birth control access. 

Kristen: and I'll just add to that, that like, I mean, I'm sure you guys have seen this is a more general wider movement of women decentering men, but in general we see that a lot with our community about decentering men choosing to opt out of marriage. Because, well, you know, historically marriage is, it does not benefit the woman at all.

It benefits the man and, so, yeah, so I think in general there's just a movement away and part of that is in response to men's behavior, especially more recently with the manosphere taking control, especially of younger men's, you know, especially Gen Zs. You know, a lot of the polls that I've seen from Gen Z has been that men [00:39:00] in particular just do not they expect their wives to be basically trad wives.

They don't want them to be equals. So I think there's just, just this shift. And backwards thinking that's going on, unfortunately in the younger generations, and the women, of course, are wise up to this in the younger generations, and so they're just kind of opting out, forget it, I'm, I don't need a to a man.

I don't need a date. I have a career. I'm good. I have my friends, I have my family. I'm good enough. So yeah, in general, I would say that's kind of the shift that we've been seeing in response to more current events. 

Erika: Yeah. I think more and more it's like we really encourage women, like don't let anything be up in the air. It's like we're big advocates for get a prenup or 

a postnup, have these conversations early on. Like first date, I told my husband, my now husband, "I don't want kids. This isn't something that like could be a conversation later on.

I will have an abortion if I get pregnant." Like know yourself [00:40:00] first, have very clear perspectives on what you want, and don't, don't budge unless it's something that could be up in the air, you know. Because I think we have so many examples of women throughout history who have

like given an inch and then had a mile 

taken from them. I think women are, are just continually, like, more and more vulnerable, and we're seeing that right now, and it's like, it's important for women to be strong and to know what they want and to not compromise on, on, 

their values, their personal values, 

Maggie: Can't agree more on all that, and that's why I need a, a SINKY podcast, you know, single income, no kids, 'cause

Kristen: That's right.

Maggie: it's 

hard out there. 

Erika: Yeah, Kristen and I keep joking that technically we, we both right now are technically sinks because we quit our jobs. Even though I'm, I'm doing more and more freelance it feels like. But we always say we are the Dinky podcast. We try to make it as child-free as possible because we don't wanna center our [00:41:00] husbands.

And also because, you know, we're not huge advocates for marriage. Now we're both very lucky to be in good relationships. But I think with time we have both grown a lot wiser and realized how much a lot of these patriarchal systems are really not helping women. So,

please don't look upon your sinkiness with shame.

More and more we

need to 

center women and, and, s- and center matriarchy because it's, it's bad out here, guys. 

Maggie: let's go a little positive before we wrap up. What's like one expected, unexpected financial or lifestyle advantage of being childfree that people are not talking enough

about? 

Erika: I love a nap. I mean, I could take a two-hour nap in the afternoon every day

So I think that's, that's it for me. It's just the freedom to do what I want when I want. 

Kristen: I mean, yeah, plus one, but just to, to spice it up, what's top of mind for me is, we just talked about this in a recent episode. We also do a whole series on regretful parents because there are a lot of parents who regret their decision as well. [00:42:00] And one of the conversations we just had around that was that you can't enjoy a meal for like the first.

13 years of the child, so maybe even longer. I don't know, a long time because you're constantly making sure your kid is being fed when, when it's dinner time you are feeding the kid first and foremost your food's getting cold. So I think just like enjoying food and, and at my leisure and going out to dinner whenever I want, without, you know, concern.

I think those are many benefits of, of the child free life.

Maggie: I never thought about that. Yeah, good meal.

Dr. Barb: You never thought about it because you weren't in that situation.

You know.

you don't realize how exhausting it can be. I mean, when you said a good nap, and that's because I used to pull you and your brother on the couch with me. 'cause I needed a nap so that you guys did a nap. You know, it's, it was exhausting.

No, no doubt about it.

Kristen: I know. I mean, and we love mothers. [00:43:00] Women are incredible. I mean, women do so much. Mothers do so much high praise to everyone out there who does, who has taken on that role? Because I now I know in like, especially now, I know I couldn't be me, couldn't be me.

Erika: can I t- you know, take the mic for a 

second and just say, you know, Dr. Barb, I'm so curious. If Maggie and your son were still in the picture, you're not erasing them from history, and no personal feelings, all personal feelings aside, if you were to go back and, you know, could do your life over again now, do you think you would choose to have children?

Dr. Barb: I don't know because when I got pregnant with my son, I was in the middle of earning my doctorate. And so, and then right after I had him, I had Maggie. But I wouldn't change anything for the world. I mean, I wasn't one of those people that was like, oh, I can't wait to get married and have children.

That never, ever crossed my mind. 

I just happened to. I [00:44:00] got pregnant and so I, you know, thought, well, I'll just scoop this baby in with the rest of my responsibilities. And then I got another one and I was like, okay. But I mean, we were, I was a busy mom, 

I would say. But yeah, I mean, to the point where, you know, Maggie would crawl up on my lap and shut my computer and be like, you're done now.

I never for myself imagined it, but I can't imagine anything differently right now because you know, like what you were saying is if I had perfect kids that, you know, grew up and responsible human beings and whatever, whatever. I'm so fortunate because I had healthy children.

They were fun. They're funny. They, we still have a great relationship. We, I got divorced from their dad. I think child rearing is hard on families, on relationships. That's another thing. And I'm not saying I got divorced because of we had children. It just adds to a lot of stress in the family. But yeah, I don't regret it whatsoever.

I, they're like [00:45:00] the best things that ever happened to me. But you just don't know 

until you know, you know what I

Erika: Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's so hard to predict.

Maggie: She used to say we're oh sh*t, oh sh*t again So if that tells you how things were planned,

Kristen: Yeah, that's how It started. 

But 

Dr. Barb: Yeah.

Maggie: No, but 

this was such a great conversation. We appreciate you both, you know, sharing more of your perspectives and, and your community. We appreciate you bringing that in as well. There is a question we like to ask all of our guests.

And so, for each of you, how do you define financial freedom?

Kristen: For me, it is the opportunity to take risks and do things that I've always wanted to do. It's like pursuing my dreams with more bravery and confidence. 

Erika: more of your perspective and, and to your community. We appreciate you taking the time. I guess kind of like ask all of [00:46:00] our guests, and so, for me personally, what are three things that you think might help people who are listening to this podcast who maybe think they- Yeah, I love that answer. I think for me, you know, when it comes to the childfree 

conversation, I feel like selfishness is like a very dirty word.

People look at childfree people and say like, "Oh, you're being selfish." But I think, you know, when I look at the women in my ancestral line, none of them were allowed to be selfish. You know, they always were thinking of everybody else, and I think it's a huge privilege and something that I don't take lightly that I get to be selfish every day.

And I'm really, really grateful that I, I get to have that opportunity to ch- to put myself first because I know that I'm the first person in generations who was able to do that, and I'm really, really thankful for it.

Dr. Barb: That's beautiful in so many ways because one of the taglines we have here at Purse Strings is for women to put themselves first.

And you shouldn't feel selfish about it.

You know, it's because you need to, you know, put on your own oxygen as, as they say. But really, you know, take care of yourself first because [00:47:00] you, you're just, we give so much of ourselves that we're really, you know, who are we at the end of the day, if we're not a mom, a, the, the house cleaner, the cook, the nurse, the whatever.

Right? So, kudos. Yeah. I think you both have excellent introspective insights with a lot of thought around your decisions. I really appreciate it and I honor the both of you for really, really standing on your own skinny limbs sometimes and saying, this is what we're doing and this is why we're doing it, and, and that's okay.

You know, and we are, feel really good about it and good for the world.

Maggie: we're gonna keep talking money and keep talking about just doing what you need to do, which is best for you. And 

I'm just so amazed how much research and thoughtfulness you guys have put into this, 'cause I think- More people need to do that just in general about any decision that we make.

These aren't small choices. These are big choices. And so, these aren't spur of the moment decisions. So kudos on that, and thank you again for coming and, and sharing your insights. And we're excited to have another [00:48:00] conversation soon. 

But until then, be financially fearless. 

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