Women & Money: The Shit We Don't Talk About! | Purse Strings

Net Worth Is Not Self Worth with Elizabeth Husserl

• Barbara Provost & Maggie Nielsen • Episode 152

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You can look successful on paper and still feel like it is never enough.

In this episode, we have Elizabeth Husserl, a sought-out speaker, entrepreneur, registered investment advisor, mother and cofounder of Peak360, a boutique wealth planning firm. She expertly guides people to a deeper understanding of their relationship to money and wealth. But more than anything, she is a thought leader at the intersection of psychology and money. Her debut book, The Power of Enough: Finding Joy in Your Relationship with Money, is a paradigm- shifting exploration that invites readers to redefine success, loosen the emotional grip of traditional financial beliefs, and build a more joyful, self-aligned relationship with wealth.

Why do so many women feel financially insecure even when the numbers look good on paper?

Because we measure wealth mentally but experience it physically. We hit the metrics and the goalpost moves. The missing piece is learning to actually feel wealthy in your body, not just know it in your head.

What is the wealth mandala and how do you use it?
It is a circle with twelve human needs like health, connection, freedom, and purpose. You rate each one from one to ten and color it in. Then you look at your whole life like a flower and see where your time and resources actually need to go.

What is the difference between money, wealth, and power?
Money is a tool. Wealth is a state of wellbeing where your human needs are being met. Power is the agency to design your own life. None of them are the same thing and only one of them lives in your bank account.

What is satiation and why does it matter more than gratitude?
Gratitude is a heart experience. Satiation is a body experience. It is that feeling when a meal truly hits the spot. Elizabeth says we need to bring that same felt sense of enough into our financial lives, not just think it, feel it.

How do you define enough when the world keeps telling you it is never enough?
Start by feeling what enough actually feels like before you take it to a spreadsheet. Then do the math in five-year segments. And compound your moments of meaning the same way you compound interest.

Join us for next week’s Money Talks, “Your Complete Financial Protection Plan: Estate, Insurance & Investments Simplified” Most women have one of the three dialed in. Fewer have all of them. We’re laying out exactly what you need to protect what you’ve built, grow it intentionally, and make sure it goes where you want it to go. Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions! 

Follow & connect with Elizabeth:

Want to take this conversation one step further? Join us for our next Money Talks, a free 30 minute live session where we’ll dig into a question we hear all the time from women business owners: Budgeting for Businesses to Offer Benefits. Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions! 

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Maggie: [00:00:00] I was having a conversation with somebody this morning who was talking about how they're gonna do the Coast FIRE movement, which I have to look into a bit more. I think it's more on you have enough money for retirement, and so all your retirement is funded, and so then you are just making money to live your everyday life.

Maggie: So it's less about having those investments now. It's all your investments are made. But you know, FIRE is financial independence, retire early. And, there's always a number you wanna get to and all of these different [00:00:30] things, which is really great for some people and quite an accomplishment. But it's a lot of pressure, and I think, if you're not in that bucket, then it's kind of like, ah, well, it's you're not doing enough or, or being enough and all these different things.

Maggie: And so I'm excited about this conversation and to share it with the audience today, just because our author wrote a book about, called The Power of Enough, and really how money is, is one tool but there are so many other things in [00:01:00] life. And so she has this wealth mandala that is really, a framework of ways we can start kind of looking at our wealth.

Maggie: And yes, our money bucket might be doing really good, but how is, our touch? How is our connection? How is our health? How are these different things that all tie in? And I think this is such an important view to take as we're so just told, retirement, investments doing these FIRE movements of retiring early and not having to think about our money again.

Maggie: [00:01:30] But wealth is so much more than that. And it's one of those things, we focus so much on wealth until we don't have our health, and then health becomes everything. And so how do we look at this as a holistic picture of all these moving parts together and hit success? is it gonna be, by the time we're 35?

Maggie: Maybe, maybe not, but it's something that's ever-moving. And so I just love the view that it's not about retiring and hitting that goal right away as fast as we can, but really having this holistic experience and being [00:02:00] satiated in all these ways. So here's the podcast we have for today with Elizabeth, and I can't wait to hear your thoughts, so let's get started.

[00:02:30] 

Maggie: Elizabeth, we are so excited to have you on the podcast today. I don't know if you know that we saw you speak at the keynote speaker at the WIFS conference. and I got your book and read it, and so I was so excited to have you on the podcast today and introduce you to our audience.

Maggie: So before we dive into this great [00:03:00] conversation, can you share a little bit of who you are and what you do?

Elizabeth: Yes, of course, Maggie. I'm so touched that you all saw me at WIFS. So my name is Elizabeth Hustrul. I am a wealth advisor. I'm a co-founder of a boutique firm here in the Bay Area called Peak 360 Wealth Management, but author, mom ritualist. I mean, I feel like I live life to the fullest, but I've been exploring the intersection of money, finance, psychology, and spirituality since I was 18 years old.

Elizabeth: So this is my passion and my path

Maggie: [00:03:30] I love it. Yeah, and there's so much goodness to share here because I love how you really work on kind of separating, like, wealth and, and having enough, and really your book of The Power of Enough. So kind of to start out, so many women look successful on paper but still feel insecure. Why do you think this is happening?

Maggie: I mean, the numbers add up, so why aren't we feeling, good? Isn't hasn't that been our goal?

Elizabeth: Well, so I think it's really, you know, I actually, I feel chills when you ask that question, Maggie, 'cause I think it really comes to the core of the fact [00:04:00] that I think we experience wealth differently than men. And I use that word intentionally, experience, 'cause part of why I wrote the book is because in my decades of working with people, I realized that we don't talk enough about the somatic component of wealth, right?

Elizabeth: Where it's like, do I feel wealthy? Am I experiencing wealth, right? Do I feel enough? All these things. I look at my body as I even say that, right? I'm like, " Do I feel big in myself?" And I think that's the, the issue is that money feels so abstract, and [00:04:30] it's so mental that I think it's really important that we do the analysis around the money game.

Elizabeth: There are studies out there that say women have less in retirement 'cause we don't take enough risk. All of that is valid, and the financial literacy is widely important. I think equally important is as we accumulate financial resources, are we doing the important work of understanding what it means to feel wealthy? And that's why there's a big component in the book around satiation and [00:05:00] feeling satisfied and the somatic and visceral component of like, "Oh my gosh, can I pause for a moment? Can I literally consume a moment of meaning and a moment of celebration and a moment of success that I personally identify as successful," right?

Elizabeth: Not that someone tells me, "Hey, you met this metrics. Amazing. Good job." But it's more like, "No, I rocked it. I felt that moment of success. Can I just pause for a second, close my eyes, and let every cell in my body feel wealthy?" And if we start to do that more, [00:05:30] Maggie, alongside looking at our statements and looking at our investments and savings, we would start to shift our experience of wealth.

Elizabeth: It's kinda like we would go to the money gym and build these muscles where I know I'm worthy. I know I'm wealthy. I know I'm enough. And I'm like, "Oh my God," it just makes me excited because I'm like, the world would be so different if we lived from that place

Maggie: It really would. And it's funny that you use the word, like, satiated. Like, I've never heard that used really outside of, like, a meal. You know what I [00:06:00] mean? Of, like, feeling satiated. it is kind of that same feeling. And every time, I mean, I feel like a lot of women can relate to this, of, like, you do something and you've, you've wanted it, you've worked for it, you've envisioned it, and once you have it, you're like, "Okay, onto the next." You know? And it's, and you didn't take that moment. 

Elizabeth: Yes, 'cause that, I mean, there's like, there's a whole book, there's so many books written about that. The other one that I really love, The Psychology of Money, right, is he talks about that, that the goalpost keeps on moving. And whose fault is that? Ours. Right?

Elizabeth: And I think this is a really [00:06:30] important piece, Maggie. I think women understand relationships, right? And our relationship to money is a relationship, right? And a lot of times we scapegoat money for things that aren't going right in our lives. And I'm the first one to say, "Hey, we need to take responsibility for how we're creating those patterns."

Elizabeth: So literally, I mean, if you were just like... if you're listening to this, just stop for a second and be like, "Huh, what's the last goalpost that I actually stopped and celebrated?" Right? And so that I actually took in and [00:07:00] celebrated with my community, whatever that looks like. Because those are the moments, I mean, again, I'm not 90, but I can imagine those are the moments that I wanna review when I'm older to be like, "Huh, did I actually pause and smell the roses?"

Elizabeth: That what, that's what we're talking about. And it's funny that you love the word satiation, 'cause I went back and forth with my husband on it. He's like, "Elizabeth, why this word?" I'm like, "Why are you hanging your shingle on this word?" I'm like, "Babe, because it really brings home this, this visceral experience of wealth that we don't talk [00:07:30] about."

Elizabeth: We talk about gratitude, right? And gratitude is an antidote to scarcity. It's really important to be grateful. But for me, gratitude is a heart experience. Satiation is a body experience. And a lot of what I talk about in the book is how do we make wealth, not just in our mental sphere, because it feels too abstract, like let's do the analysis, let's make sure we're looking, but how do we bring it to the heart through gratitude and how do we bring it to the body through satiation?

Elizabeth: And to your point, Maggie, a meal is the best metaphor because, like, we all know [00:08:00] what it feels like when that meal hit the spot. Like it was nourishing, it was warm, or, I mean, we're, it's cold. It's been raining here, so for me a, a warm meal today is like amazing. But it just hits the spot and like time stops and you're like, " I didn't count calories.

Elizabeth: I didn't... like, I just enjoyed it." And so that's the same concept to bring to your money life. What are those moments that you just enjoyed the success? Sometimes it means doing the hard thing, writing the hard email, firing the client, hiring the client. Whatever [00:08:30] it is, take the moment to recognize that just like as if you're tracking a spreadsheet.

Maggie: Yeah. And, and what came up for me is when you were saying that is like, when you really stopped, enjoyed it with your community, we do that at these milestones that I don't always love, which is like a bachelorette party, a wedding, a baby shower, and a funeral, but we do so many more things in our lives than just those where we get our community together and celebrate.

Maggie: And so I think we need to bring that into, our financial [00:09:00] goals, our business goals, our health goals, and really bring the community around too

Elizabeth: Yeah, and if I were to give you a very specific example, right? I published my book a year ago, and I remember my book coach, before the book came out, and she asked me, "What are your metrics of success?" Which I was like, "Oh, I'm so glad she asked me," right? 'Cause, you know, I can't tell you how many people are like, "Oh, the box of books arrives, you do the unveiling video for Instagram, and then it's anticlimactic."

Elizabeth: And I'm like, "Okay, I don't wanna do that," even though I did do my video [00:09:30] 'cause it was fun. But I was like, "Huh, for me, the metrics of success is to throw a dance party where I celebrate with my loved ones who have seen me work really hard writing this book." And she's like, "Do it." I'm like, "Really? It doesn't have to be in a bookstore?"

Elizabeth: She's like, "No, throw the dance party." I was like, "Okay." And so I threw... So it's ki- so imagine kinda wedding style, like, I did a buy-out at a local restaurant. I invited 160 people, clients, friends book coaches, like, whoever helped [00:10:00] me along. It was gonna be expensive, so I sold tickets on Eventbrite 'cause I was like, "I financed half of it."

Elizabeth: I'm like, "People want to celebrate and support me," so they bought a ticket. And it was so freaking fun, Maggie, that that is the highlight. When I look back at my publishing moment, that was the highlight because I felt supported, seen, and celebrated, right? And so, and, that was kind of one of the last times that I saw my dad before he passed, and I'm so grateful that I got to create that experience that he got to [00:10:30] participate in.

Elizabeth: So that's just one example where it's out of the box, right? I don't know many authors who throw celebratory dance parties. That's what I wanted to do, and so it's more like that. What are those milestones that are so important to you? How do you take the moment to celebrate the wins and embody the wins?

Maggie: I love that, and I love a dance party, and it's like, it's not like, "Oh, I threw a dance party in my kitchen." You know what I mean? Like no, we're going all out. We're doing the thing.

Elizabeth: DJ. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Maggie: and you know everybody else remembers that too, so it's a [00:11:00] great experience for everyone. So you talk about this idea that money, wealth, and power are not the same.

Maggie: Can you kind of break down your definition for these for us?

Elizabeth: Yeah. so, money is a tool, and we've heard that a lot, right? And it's talked about on this podcast a lot. Money is a tool. It's a resource that we can use to satisfy different needs. Wealth is a state of wellbeing, right? So I th- I'm gonna start with those two first, right? So wealth is much more broader, and the way that I define wealth [00:11:30] in my book is it's a state of wellbeing where our human needs are being met, and this is really important.

Elizabeth:  Our human needs are universal, and so I like to tell people, "Throw this idea of neediness out the window." We have needs, and the way we satisfy our needs is unique and personal. So that's really key because if you're thinking through these human needs, which is financial stability, safety, physical health, freedom, purpose, understanding, participation, connection, curiosity, leisure, touch, right?

Elizabeth: And I [00:12:00] leave a space on the wealth mandala to add to that maybe I didn't say, but get clear on what your needs are. Get clear on how you satisfy them, and I like to tell people each need should be satisfied with both monetary and non-monetary ways. And that's where then money has a role. It's a tool that if you're satisfying a need, for example, a need for connection, monetary is like, I like to go have dinner with my friends once a month.

Elizabeth: I spend money. But a non-monetary strategy for connection is like, but guess what? I also [00:12:30] like to take hikes. That doesn't cost anything. So I meet a friend for a hike, and I connect that way. And so notice how then money takes a I don't wanna say smaller, but, like, it's a more specific role in how we create wealth.

Elizabeth: Wealth is a state of wellbeing that comes out in our ability to satisfy our needs. So let me just pause there before I add in power. Like, any questions there?  

Maggie: It just makes a lot of sense and it kinda reminds me of, like everyone's working towards money until you don't have your health, and then you're like, "Damn, I need to [00:13:00] go get my health back." And, and it's these, you know, until you're alone, and then you're like, "I need community." And so it is kinda, then those are the times when you don't have 'em, you kinda see how that whole picture works together 

Elizabeth: Totally. And we live in a culture that we're so freaking focused on the financial stability slice of the pie. and don't get me wrong, if that financial slice of the pie is on fire, right, we gotta address it. Like, I live in California. Literally, I've had clients whose house has gotten burned down, right?

Elizabeth: Like, that house can be on fire, when things [00:13:30] happen to our home, when we lose our job, if there's a death. And even if we have a baby, we're like, "Ah!" Like, that's changing, right? So my job as a wealth and financial advisor is to help clients keep this house in check and to be nimble when change happens.

Elizabeth: but I tell all my clients, my job is only half done with that. My job as a wealth advisor is to make sure we're having conversations simultaneously in all of these other areas, ' cause if we're not being mindful in how we address these other areas, we're actually not building a true [00:14:00] wealth portfolio.

Elizabeth: And so I think, I wrote the book and I, I feel like I have something to contribute to my field, is because I think we're doing ourselves a disservice when we keep the, the vision of wealth so narrowly focused to financial stability. I think if we raise our gaze and be like, "Oh my gosh, wealth is so many more things," then we start to feel wealthier without needing to add a dime to our bank account, and that is empowering.

Elizabeth: So let's go to the empowering question. Like, what is power, [00:14:30] right? Power, for me, is, is vitality, is our ability to be connected to that source of life, right? To feel agency in how we design our lives, right? To feel agency in how I engage in relationships. And so if I detach and decouple power from money, I can start to experience different sources of power as I satisfy my needs, maybe in my relationships, maybe in my understanding of the world, maybe my creative contributions.

Elizabeth: [00:15:00] I can feel powerful even as money fluctuates. 'Cause the reality is that anyone who tracks the stock market, some days it's up, some days it's down. And so I need to decouple my experience of power from money's cyclical nature, right? And I think that is just kind of Relationships 101. I gotta break that codependency of money defining my sense of wealth or money defining my sense of power

Maggie: Yeah, I love that. And I, [00:15:30] I kinda wanna go into that, that wealth mandala because I find the, a lot of advisors that we work with here at Purse Strings do have more of that holistic view. And there's a lot of advisors who say, like, "I do holistic planning," which is different than what we're talking about here, which is really this holistic view.

Maggie: And I think a lot of clients are like, "Well, no, I talk to them about insurance and 401s. That's what they're there for." But this position is really changing of yes, and we talk about all these other things. And I know when you were [00:16:00] presenting, you had the story, and we don't have to go through the whole story, but, like, one of the takeaways was, like, he should probably get back into therapy for trauma, and, like, they need to go on dates more, and this is how money should be spent, is on those two things, like, to deepen that wealth.

Maggie: And so, I would love to dive more into this because your role as an advisor is so much bigger now than just stocks and bonds and insurance, 

Elizabeth: oh, 100%, and I love that you bring this up, Maggie, 'cause I also cringe. Like, I can't tell you how many presentations I sit through, and everyone's like, "Holistic wealth plan." [00:16:30] And I'm like, "What are they gonna show me," right? And to your point, we're like, "In addition to our brokerage accounts, we do do 401s, and insurance, and estate planning, and TPA."

Elizabeth: For me, all of that still fits within the financial stability slice of the pie, and so I'm glad that there's diversification in the financial stability slice of the pie. But for me, the holistic view is like, what? Like, it's like, let's just take the time to talk about as a culture, what is wealth, right?

Elizabeth: And I'm like, if, if that's what the listeners walk away with, like, huh, like, am I drinking [00:17:00] the Kool-Aid of what the external world defines wealth compared to what my experience of wealth is? Like, just start to question that. So what you're making reference to is that I sit down, and I use this wealth mandala tool, which is free on my website.

Elizabeth: Go to my website afterwards and download it, right? You don't even have to read the book, although the book help, helps to kinda understand how to use it. But it's totally free. I work with all my clients, this is our Q1 meeting, right? Before we jump into cash flow or tax planning or anything, I always say, "I need to know what your wealth mandala looks like for the year."

Elizabeth: [00:17:30] It changes every year, much like a wealth, an investment statement changes every year. So think of asset diversification, right? When I'm in-- creating an investment for a client, I'm thinking of asset classes, right? Stocks, bonds, small, large, mid-cap, da, da, da, da, da, international. And so the same thing is the wealth mandala.

Elizabeth: It is literally a circle with the 12 needs and a space for you to add a need if I didn't, if you're like, "Oh, I'm not feeling fully reflected." Great, add yours. Like, be co-creative. And then what I tell people is that on a [00:18:00] scale of one to ten, how fulfilled are you feeling in this need, right? And so for, for example, financial stability.

Elizabeth: I feel gainfully employed, I can pay my bills, I'm saving, no big issues there. Maybe it's a nine out of ten, or like, "Oh my God, I just lost my job." It might be a two. So you do that for each need. At phys-- in physical health, right? Oh my gosh, I'm working too much, never working out. Mm, maybe if I'm honest, it's a three, right?

Elizabeth: Or connection. I haven't seen my friends in forever. Or understanding. [00:18:30] What the hell is happening with politics today, right? Like, you can go through all of the different needs, put the number, and literally I have people color it in, right? And so you color it all the way to the edge if it's fully satisfied.

Elizabeth: You color just a little bit if it's a one, two, or a three. And then I tell people, "Maggie, take a step back and just look at your wealth portfolio as if it were a flower." And I always tell people, try to be non-judgmental when you look at it, right? [00:19:00] Because a flower's never fully in bloom. Like, some petals are out, some petals...

Elizabeth: But we love flowers. We think they're beautiful in their organic state. So look at your wealth mandala in its organic state, and just start to see what reflections you see. You're like, "Huh, I didn't think that need was so under-met." That is fascin I've been putting off physical health too long or connection or curiosity too long.

Elizabeth: And guess what? My financial stability slice of the pie actually feels pretty full. How about I [00:19:30] focus attention, time, and resources towards the other needs I need to meet? And when I do this with clients, especially clients who are financially stable and have a high level of assets, right? And r- this is really important.

Elizabeth: I try to steer away from the word net worth because I wanna decouple net worth and self-worth. So high level of assets in the financial stability slice of the pie, and I do this exercise, I'm often surprised where the 2s and the 3s slice. And [00:20:00] so the example I gave at the keynote talk was of a client who's an executive C-suite at a pretty major tech company.

Elizabeth: We did this exercise. They do not need more salary, more RSU, more stock. But he was, I wanna say, a four or a five in touch, and they were expecting their second child, and his, like, face went white, and he's like, "Oh my gosh, I don't like to be touched, and that's an issue when I have newborns, and I know where that's coming from, right?

Elizabeth: It's [00:20:30] coming from being raised with a, a mom who was emotionally unavailable, and I would cringe every time she'd walk into the room, and I wanna be a different parent. I don't wanna cringe when my girls reach out for me." And we just like, mic drop. We just pause for a second, recognize how vulnerable that was, and be like, "Okay, great.

Elizabeth: This year we're going to channel resources towards working either with a grief group, with a therapeutic group, with a men's group, whatever you need. I'm not going [00:21:00] to be the person who facilitates that, but I can be a guide in helping you make the connection so that resources go towards what will actually address scarcity and that will actually add an enhanced sense of wealth." 

Maggie: Yeah. I mean, every time I hear that, I get goosebumps, and it's so not a conversation you'd expect to have with your financial advisor. But when we're so focused on money all the time, that connection with your children, I mean, I don't have children, but I even know that's like, [00:21:30] it's priceless. like, oh my God, holding a newborn, like, there's nothing I would love to do more.

Maggie: Like, and so you know how important that connection is and it's something money, can't buy, but we can buy the resources to help us get there. And so I just think that's so impactful because it's, it's, we've gotta change the focus sometimes of more, more, more money when, that's not really what's depleting us right now.

Maggie: It shouldn't be our focus 

Elizabeth: No, and, and I think like, 'cause I can imagine lots of financial advisors listen to [00:22:00] this podcast. I know I do. I think it's such a great one. ' Is like there's a lot of financial advisors who use values exercises, right? or what I'm wanting to contribute to my field, and I'm like, "Oh, maybe I'll record a little video on how to use this for financial advisors," is this is a much more concrete way to talk about values and talk about the impact of living or not living into the values, right?

Elizabeth: 'Cause sometimes, I mean, I've gone through my own values exercise, [00:22:30] and it still feels abstract unless I bring it to, well, how am I implementing strategies in my life, practices in my life? And so that's where I was hoping that the wealth mandala exercise for people who just do it for themselves or financial advisors who use it for clients to really dig deep into how are we channeling resources to things that make us feel wealthier.

Maggie: Yeah, I think it's a great tool for everyone just to kind of sit down and look at and just like you said, look at it non-judgmentally and see where you can even just boost things by [00:23:00] like one point. What would that look like if it's hitting the gym or, or starting therapy or, meeting a girlfriend out for a hike?

Maggie: I mean, it can be really low-hanging fruit. We just have to make time for those things that get, we're so good at laters. But sometimes, later's too late

Elizabeth: Yeah, exactly. And it helps us take responsibility and be like, "Okay, maybe I don't have money to put towards these needs, but it's my responsibility as a human to figure out how to satisfy these needs in non-monetary ways." Okay, that might be a little bit of a, [00:23:30] oddest pill to swallow, but once you do, that's where you find agency, and that is how you build power.

Elizabeth: And I would say the other thing too, Maggie, like I use this with my family, like my family knows, my husband and my daughter, that every Valentine's, this is the exercise we do. We have Valentine's brunch. I cook them brunch, and I sit them down to do this exercise because, and we do it once a year, because I've learned so much about my teen, right?

Elizabeth: Like she did it, I was tickled to be like, "Okay, her financial stability and slice of-- and safety slice of the pie are full." I feel [00:24:00] very grateful. I don't take that for granted. But her freedom was like a two, and I'm like, "Huh." I'm like, "I don't feel like I'm a strict parent. What's this about?"

Elizabeth: And she's like, "I wanna drive. I wanna go explore." And I'm like-- So she told me that when she was 14. I'm like, "Well, I can't change the law. You're not gonna get your license at 14. But I can teach you how to use public transportation," right? "I can teach you how to get to a friend's house without us." And now that she's-- we're literally a month away from her getting her license, [00:24:30] we just celebrate that freedom is around the corner.

Elizabeth: But it opened up a conversation that I would never have known, and I understand how that's been impacting her experience of wealth. Fascinating.

Maggie: Yeah. I mean, that's something I would have not even expected from a 14-year-old, but it makes so much sense, 'cause when you have to rely on someone to come home from work to drive you there, all the things, it's, it's frustrating.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Maggie: And so I know you talk a bit about, like, resources and widening those resources and how they're wider than wealth.

Maggie: Can you kind of talk a little bit more [00:25:00] about that?

Elizabeth: Yeah, and maybe my origin story I think is important to name is that when I graduated from my bachelor in economics, I went and lived and worked in Oaxaca, Mexico, for two years doing community economics program and teaching indigenous women how to create savings and loan cooperatives, which was an amazing project.

Elizabeth: But I think what was most impactful for me was just experiencing another experience of wealth, right? And so I would go to these indigenous villages thinking, "Okay, [00:25:30] I'm gonna be bringing and imparting all this knowledge and my tools," et cetera. And I did, and they were super appreciative, but I was like, "Oh my gosh, they feel different than a textbook definition of what poverty looks like," right?

Elizabeth: And I was like, "Yes," maybe we got dirt floors going on, and yes, there could certainly be more financial resources that can support the community, but they felt wealthy. And I was like, "Oh my God, I'm twenty-four years old. This doesn't make sense compared to what I was taught [00:26:00] economics and finance to be," right?

Elizabeth: And I, and I'm Latina, and I've, traveled many countries in Latin America, so this wasn't new, but I don't think I had lived and experienced, I mean, a, an extended period of time. And I just started asking people, "How do you define wealth or riqueza in Spanish?" And their responses were immediate.

Elizabeth: Riqueza or wealth is health. It's community. It's our connection to spirit. It is are we celebrating with each other? Are we taking care of nature? [00:26:30] And again and again and again, and so for two years, I just kept having these conversations, Maggie. I was like, "Huh They define wealth and resources so differently, right?

Elizabeth: I was taught that economics was the allocation of scarce resources, right? So scarcity is embedded in the definition of economics. I remember that at 16, my first economics course. I was like, "Okay." And I was like, "Huh, they don't define it that way," right? Your relationship to spirit, whatever that means to you, is not scarce, right?

Elizabeth: Your relationship to nature, yes, some natural [00:27:00] resources might be scarce. And so I think what it just helped me understand, Maggie, is that there are scarce resources, and there are not scarce resources or abundant resources. And we have to learn how to recognize the difference. We also have to learn to break our dependency on monetary resources and to recognize that there's other resources like time, like creativity like friendships.

Elizabeth: There's just so many, like resiliency, generosity, that we can use to [00:27:30] create our experience of wealth. So I would say for people just to pay attention of what are... maybe even stop for a second and ask yourself, "What are the resources outside of money that I have access to?" And I think when you start recognizing and making lists, you're like, "Huh.

Elizabeth: Okay, let me be more aware of how I employ, utilize, save, give, receive, earn all these different resources." And we start to widen our language and our concepts around economics and finance.

Maggie: When [00:28:00] you think that way, you feel so much lighter, I can just, like, feel it

Maggie: in my body, feeling lighter. I can feel in that community, like, it's not, there's not, like, the social media and all the things that I need to order these new leggings or this new brand or the stay in the latest and greatest.

Maggie: Like, that's not the wealth, and that's, it has, doesn't have the value that we put on it, which is so a sigh of a relief almost, but having, that spiritual value, that community value, being on nature, touching grass, like, that's what's really important

Elizabeth: Yeah, and I would say to, [00:28:30] especially to our culture that is structured differently, we have immediate gratification. That's okay. It's like the therapist that says, "There's the hole. You keep falling in the hole, one day you'll walk around the hole." So whatever, we keep falling in the hole. We keep ordering on Amazon.

Elizabeth: We keep ordering on Zappos. But beauty is that there's also free returns, and so I tell people, even if you are in a pattern of ordering, and maybe you can't stop that muscle 'cause it's so ingrained, when you receive the package, pause for a second and be like, "Hmm, is this really gonna satiate me? Is it really gonna satisfy a need?

Elizabeth: Which need is it [00:29:00] gonna satisfy?" And you might be like, "Oh my God, amazing. It's gonna satisfy my need for..." I'm trying to look at the needs. I'm like, physical health, right? I needed those weights or whatever. And if you're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't quite see what need it's gonna satisfy, hmm, maybe I'm gonna just get in the car, go to UPS, and return it," right?

Elizabeth: Give yourself grace to explore without judgment because these are new, new muscles that we're building

Maggie: And that's always the key, right? Is without judgment. It's much easier said than done, but we say that a [00:29:30] lot, and it's important just to talk to yourself like you talk to a friend, right? You would not say these things to her, so don't say them to yourself. 

Elizabeth: So two things, when you said that all of this conversation makes you feel lighter, like, I put the subtitle Finding Joy in Your Relationship to Money on purpose. I do believe we can find joy here, right? We can make it fun and lighter.

Elizabeth: But the other thing too is that I wrote the book without any mathematical equation, right? Some people are like, "Is it a finance book?" I'm like, "Yes, but it's a financial inquiry book." And so and I say that because there's a ton of little [00:30:00] mini moments and questions where I like to tell people, like, grab three friends and read the book together.

Elizabeth: And on my website, there's a discussion guide. Because I think that the more that we talk about money and our money stories, and we hold ourselves accountable to how we're satisfying our needs, A, the more fun it gets, and B, the lighter it feels. Like, our powers hold story, especially when they're secretive, and money is still a taboo in our culture, and we don't talk enough about it.

Elizabeth: So the more we start to talk [00:30:30] about it, which is why I freaking love your podcast. I mean, like, I'm like you, I love talking about money. I get to talk about money every 

Elizabeth: day, right? It is so much fun. Exactly. And so and I think that's why people listen to your podcast, Maggie, because we're so curious. And, and so but to take it to the next step, instead of just listening, start talking about it, right?

Elizabeth: Take a question from today's conversation, call a friend and be like, "Hey, have you ever thought about wealth this way?" Have conversations.

Maggie: I think it's, yeah, and they should be easier because they're not like, " So [00:31:00] what's your salary? How much did you invest this year?" It's like, that's not what I'm asking you at all. You know? It's what are your feelings, how'd you grow up? I know your mom. How'd she talk about this with you?

Maggie: And I think that, I know you mentioned, like, The Psychology of Money before, and that's what I love about that book is like, oh, like, every chapter is a different kind of perspective you might have on money, which some I'm like, "Oh, I could see why you would think that," but like, that's not how I grew up. And then you see another one and you're like, "Wow, that's me on the spot."

Maggie: You know? So it's just interesting to get all those viewpoints

Elizabeth: Yeah, [00:31:30] exactly. I mean, I think the easiest one is, like, just call someone up and be like, "Hey, what was your first money memory?" Right? Like that just it's a, it's a neutral question, and we get some great stories with their first money memory, so

Maggie: There al- there's always a good laugh in there too. And so looking at, where we're at right now with everything shifting economically, how can women define enough when the world keeps telling them it's never enough? 

Elizabeth: Yes. And so it's defining enough is, I'll start by saying it's a revolutionary act, right? And I [00:32:00] think this is really important because in my industry, and I can imagine yours, Maggie, we talk about the great wealth transfer that is gonna be happening in the next, 10 to 15 years, and that basically means trillions of dollars that are gonna pass on to the hands of women 'cause we're outliving our spouses, right?

Elizabeth: Because we're inheriting and also 'cause we're earning it, right? And so I am so freaking excited about the great wealth transfer because I think there's gonna be more and more space in our conversations in economics and finance to, to start to push back at some of the metrics [00:32:30] that we think are defined, that we think are rigid and actually can be fluid and redefined.

Elizabeth: And so, and so what I would say is that why it's, for me, it's a revolutionary act, is that the more we start to experience and embody wealth, right? I practice it every single day, Maggie. I wake up, the first thing I do is have my coffee, and I pull my journal, and I write my three things that satisfied me the day before, right?

Elizabeth: It's my everyday practice before I look at email, before I do anything. It's like I'm connected to my experience of [00:33:00] enough because I wanna practice what I preach. And the more that we start to be like, I actually know what enough looks like in strategy and in practice. I do the math and I know what enough looks like financially and basically from a financial independence standpoint that is like, okay, this is the lifestyle that am living and inspired to.

Elizabeth: This is how much I need to support that if I wanna be fully financially independent, meaning not working, or in my case, I'm an entrepreneur. Like, I will never [00:33:30] retire from being an entrepreneur. Maybe I'll do less and more of things. I mean, as long as I'm able-bodied, I will be creatively involved in life, right?

Elizabeth: And I think that's a healthy component as well, is because a lot of time this idea of retirement is like, yes, a lot of people wanna retire from a W2, right? Working for someone else. But if you also start to be creative and find, sources of income that come from your creativity, the reality is that you'll never retire from that in some capacity as long as, knock on wood, you're able to perform what you wanna [00:34:00] do.

Elizabeth: But I think I digress. What, what I wanna say about that is that, enough is individual So maybe spend some time thinking what does enough feel like, and then you can take that experience to the spreadsheet to be like, "Okay, let me map out phase one of enough." Then phase two. We don't have to map it out until age 95.

Elizabeth: That is extremely overwhelming. So when I work with clients, and I do do the plan to 95, I then break it down in five-year segments because life [00:34:30] changes. That's the only constant is change. And but if we experience and literally consume those moments enough, what I tell clients is that you're then compounding the experience of meaning in your life, right?

Elizabeth: 'Cause we compound interest in our accounts, so make sure you've got your savings automated. But equally important, compound those moments of meaning, and then you just start to walk in the world differently

Maggie: Mm-hmm. I'm so glad we had this conversation today. I think there's [00:35:00] so many good takeaways for our community and just a whole new way to look at things, from this actual true holistic standpoint, not just, investments and your estate plan, but really your health, your wealth, all of the different things.

Maggie: There is a question we like to ask all of our guests on the podcast, and I'm excited to hear your answer on this one, and that is: what does financial freedom mean to you? 

Elizabeth: Financial freedom is the, the ability to have agency in how I design my life, right? So I [00:35:30] don't aspire, as I was saying before, to be retired in the conventional sense of the word. So financial freedom isn't never earning, right? Or I have clients who tell me, " Having enough money I never have to think about."

Elizabeth: I'm like, "Wait, wait a second. I am in relationship with money. I need to think, talk, and be with it every day." So I don't, I don't aspire that. I aspire, and I feel like I'm already in financial freedom because as an entrepreneur, I get to design how I work, with whom I work, what I say yes to, what are my services.

Elizabeth: And [00:36:00] so for me, that element of design and agency is what financial freedom is in connection to your relationship to money

Maggie: Of course, of course. Well, Elizabeth, I appreciate you just sharing your knowledge with the world, putting your book out there, putting this mandala out there because I think it's so needed in this industry to bring it to, the 21st century or wherever we're at right now. Because money can do so much for us, but there's also so much more to the equation.

Maggie: So I wanna make sure we have your [00:36:30] link to your book in the show notes and to the mandala so people can get started with that. Anything else that we didn't touch on that you wanna make sure to share before we sign off today? 

 

Elizabeth: You know, we didn't touch upon just literally sitting down and having a conversation with money. I describe how to do that in my book. I share my own conversation with money 'cause I think that's the big piece. Again, as women, we like to be in a relationship, we like to talk. So sit down, talk to money.

Elizabeth: You'd be so surprised at what it wants to say. And so, the book is just chock-full of exercises and questions. And so, yeah, That's the [00:37:00] revolution is let's redefine our relationship to wealth. Let's redefine our relationship to money. Let's start there.

Maggie: And I know some people are gonna read it and think, "This girl's crazy if she wants me to sit in one chair and talk to money and want to be in the other chair and be money." But the messages come out and it works.

Elizabeth: Totally. It's like, it so works, and I went first. You can read my super vulnerable conversation with money in the book. And there's also-- I need to add this to my website. I will actually after this podcast, is that I've [00:37:30] created a GPT on ChatGPT called Conversations with Money. So if you're like, "Oh, it's not flowing, but I still wanna talk to money," go to my website.

Elizabeth: I'll actually add the link today, and then you can use ChatGPT. It has all of my principles, all of my book, all of the money archetypes, and sit down and have a conversation with money that way. That actually might be easier, Maggie, so thanks for the prompt.

Maggie: Of course, of course. I think that's gonna be great. So yeah, thanks for sharing all these resources. Thanks for sharing your expertise. I can't wait for our community to grab your book, and until next [00:38:00] time, be financially fearless.

[00:38:30] 


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Barbara Provost

Host
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Maggie Nielsen

Host